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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 July 2025
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Displaying 5898 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

Next time.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

We have heard fears of licences being suspended on the initiation of an official investigation into, say, traps that have not been set correctly or appropriately. I assume that it will potentially take a court case to decide whether removal of a licence—with, potentially, the loss of half a dozen jobs and the knock-on effect on the local economy—is proportionate. Is it your expectation that the first time that this will be tested will be in court?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

I should mention for the record that the legislation as it stands is probably compliant; the question is how it is applied. We have talked about the code of practice, which is not like any other code of practice. It is more or less like a statutory instrument. If someone does not follow the code of practice, the chances of them getting a licence will be gone. It is regulation, rather than just a code of practice, as has been suggested in relation to deer. It—

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

If you could let me finish the point: if someone does not follow the code of practice, they will not get a licence, so it is like a regulation. There is a perfect storm around whether the code is proportionate. If someone does not follow the code of practice, they do not get a licence, and that has a disproportionate effect on the business, and I think that that is why stakeholders are concerned.

You also said that, because NatureScot is a public body, there is a level of protection there. There is a further area on which we are unclear, in that a licence can be suspended without NatureScot being satisfied that an offence has been committed. That is another very worrying area. If a licence were to be suspended in that way, ECHR may well kick in, because the measure would not be proportionate. That is the concern that we are hearing from stakeholders.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

It is not hypothetical—it is in the bill.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

Minister, why is there a line in the bill that says that NatureScot does not have to be satisfied that an offence is being committed for a relevant body to suspend a licence?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

I may not be making myself clear. NatureScot will not have a role in it if another relevant body suspects illegality and a licence can be suspended without the agreement of NatureScot.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

But would the SSPCA be a “relevant body” in that respect? In other words, if it had concerns that a law had been broken, might it be able to deal with the issue?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

Finally, and again for clarity, I note that, with regard to suspension, the legislation talks about an “official investigation”. The bill defines that as

“an investigation by the Police Service of Scotland or any other body that has as one of its functions reporting, for consideration of the question of prosecution, offences alleged to have been committed”.

Are you saying that the SSPCA would absolutely not be covered by that?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2023

Finlay Carson

Absolutely, but the main point is that that would be defined as an “official investigation”, which then relates to other legislation.

I am going to suspend—