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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 5898 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

Thank you for your time this morning—it has been hugely useful.

That concludes the public part of our meeting.

10:33 Meeting continued in private until 12:21.  

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

Since members have no further questions, would any of our witnesses like to make a comment?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

The people who are likely to have a certificate are those who are already aware and who want to do the right thing, so it does not address the issue. If you want to sell puppies out of the back of a car, the certificate makes no difference—it is a valueless piece of paper. It is just an extra hoop for people to jump through and I do not know how it will incentivise those who are not minded to follow the code.

You touched on chipping, which is a legal obligation. Do we have any idea how many people chip their dogs and how many do not? Is that policed in any way? Does the SSPCA carry out random chip checks? That is already in legislation. It is also a physical thing—you can tell whether a dog has a chip—but the stuff that we are looking at now is not like that. For example, how can you check that someone has seen the bitch? How can you ensure that someone is conscious of the cost of keeping a dog? It is all very intangible, whereas chipping is a tangible thing. Do we have any idea whether people are abiding by that, given that there is no national database?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

Thank you. That is helpful.

We will explore the code of practice in more detail, but, before we move on, I want to ask about one thing that I am uncertain about. Will the bill deliver more than what we have at the moment? It appears that the only obligation on the Government as the bill stands is to create a code. The Government can create a code of practice at the moment but has chosen not to do that. The bill would force the Government to do that but, as with everything else in the bill, it says that the Government “may” legislate or do something. Does the bill go far enough to ensure that all the concerns that we have just heard are addressed legally?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

That takes us quite nicely to the subject of certificates, with questions from Kate Forbes.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

Without traceability, none of the things that we are talking about will be effective. Could the argument be made that what we need is simply a mandatory registration scheme for puppies to be microchipped? That would provide full traceability with all the required information, including the name of the breeder, where the dogs were bred and where they have been housed. Would that not just circumnavigate the bill, which does not place any requirements on the Government at all? We would go back to the good old days, if you like, when we had dog licences, but that dog licence scheme could be on a nationwide database to allow better checks and better scrutiny of breeders—whether they were puppy farmers, if you like, breeding multiple times or had small-scale unregistered litters, as at the moment. Would that not be a solution, rather than all these little bits in another bill? Are there any comments?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

I will bring in Holly Conway and then Jamie Halcro Johnston, who has a question that follows on from that point.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

Good morning, and welcome to the 23rd meeting in 2023 of the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee. Apologies have been received from Jim Fairlie and Rachael Hamilton. I welcome Jamie Halcro Johnston, who attends as a substitute. Before we begin, I ask Jamie Halcro Johnston to declare any relevant interests.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

Would anybody else like to come in on that?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 September 2023

Finlay Carson

You have mentioned the code, and referred to people wanting to see the puppy’s mother and the use of Airbnbs. However, the code would not make a person liable for anything. At the end of the day, it is just a document that you could pay regard to but that you do not have to pay regard to. What teeth does the bill have to put in place some of the safeguards that you have suggested?