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As a former clinical educator, I like the national pathways model of skills development and the ability to look at how we measure the quality of care that is delivered so that we can ensure that it is the same whether the person is in Stranraer or Stornoway. I am interested in your thoughts on establishing recognised national career pathways so that we can focus on recruitment and retention and ensure that the career development process helps us to focus on valuing the staff and the care that they are providing. Can you give us your thoughts on that?

It is interesting to listen to everyone. It is my understanding that this is a framework bill to create a more integrated service. It includes fair work, human rights and improvements in the quality and equity of services. I have the recommendations of the Feeley report in front of me. The report lays out the case for the creation of a national care service. Recommendation 20 is:

“The National Care Service’s driving focus should be improvements in the consistency, quality and equity of care and support experienced by service users, their families and carers, and improvements in the conditions of employment, training and development of the workforce.”

There is a lot even in that single recommendation. It is my understanding that this is about people with lived experience and about people who need care in order to prevent hospital admission. It is not just about dealing with delayed discharge; it is not a delayed-discharge bill. I am trying to get my head around how we support co-production, co-creation and innovation.

The framework bill is supposed to set out what further statutory instruments will come afterwards. Those will come from people—whether they are service users, service providers, NHS leads or others—working together. I would be interested to hear comments about Derek Feeley’s recommendation number 20 on the case for the national care service. Nick Morris has his hand up.

I have a quick question about the national care service charter that is part of the bill. Sections 11 and 12 mention the creation of a national care service charter that is “publicly available” and they state that the charter should be monitored and reviewed after five years.

I am interested in your thoughts about inclusion of the charter, specifically as it relates to the human rights-based approach and to supporting people—especially people who receive care. This is about embedding support for people with lived experience, as I understand it. Can you please tell us your thoughts on that?

We have looked at the issue of self-directed support, and I know that it is being reviewed. It seems to work really well in some places but not in others. You have highlighted the need to work with colleges, which is about co-working and co-engagement, and I know that, in both its Stranraer and Dumfries campuses, Dumfries and Galloway College is doing a great job in looking at future care providers. I just do not think that people know exactly what self-directed support is or means and how it can be implemented.

Thanks. I think that my question has already been answered.

Secondary legislation comes through committees all the time. I have been an MSP for six years. We approve affirmative legislation: we scrutinise it when it comes to committee, so I do not for one minute think that there will not be appropriate scrutiny of what is coming down the line. I know that this is a big piece of work and that the framework bill sets out where we are to go, but I take on board what Sandesh Gulhane said about organisations that provide care to disabled people and their perception that there will not be the ability to scrutinise the legislation. I suppose that my question is about how we can make sure that the Law Society of Scotland, the Faculty of Advocates and the Scottish Human Rights Commission are still involved in the process as we take all the legislation forward.

Issues have been raised about the national care service and employment. As we have seen—and, indeed, as I have seen from my own work—social care workers are paid differently in different parts of Scotland. If they are doing the same job, why are they not being paid the same wages? Carers do a vital job and need to be compensated appropriately.

I am interested in hearing whether you think that the bill has enough detail in it to ensure that fair work principles will be realised in the national care service. That issue has come up in various places, and it certainly forms part of the work in which I have been engaging locally in Dumfries and Galloway.

Jennifer Paton might want to go first on that.

I have an initial question for Councillor Kelly. Before the bill was published, did COSLA reach out to the Government to say, “We’re here and we want to feed into this”?

So you knew what was coming, kind of, before the bill was published?

Do you really think that the Government is gonnae take away your electric cars, Eddie?

Yes. What I wanted to ask about has mostly been covered already, but I will just say to Eddie that, every time you come to committee and give us information, no matter what your role is at that point or what hat you have got on, your knowledge and everything just demonstrates what an asset you are, and I want to say thank you.

Obviously, Dumfries and Galloway has issues as a rural area. I love the idea of electric cars—I am pursuing that already with Dumfries and Galloway Council. I think that that is absolutely the way we need to go, especially with petrol being so expensive.

I am thinking about the other aspects around social care, such as delayed discharge, and you have been able to tackle that in your area, too. I am also thinking about recruitment and retention. It is not just about encouraging young folk to go to school and college; it is also about the fact that social care is delivered mostly by women, the average age of those carers is about 50, and most of them have other caring roles and responsibilities. The papers from the previous panel of witnesses raised the issue that people who are providing care might also be caring for their parents or their kids. There are challenges with regard to recruitment and retention, so what are your thoughts about the fact that some local authorities pay a lot less than others do? Fair approaches to recruitment, retention and remuneration are, therefore, part of what we need to consider—including with Paul Kelly, I suppose.