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Can I have clarification? I think that you have contradicted what you said to Beatrice Wishart. My understanding of what was said before is that if two people had two dogs each and the four dogs were stalking and flushing, and person B shot something that the other person’s dogs had stalked and flushed, that would be an offence. Ms Fitzgerald said something opposite to that.

So, it was your intention to restrict rough shooting though the scope of the bill.

If you are in cover, how do you know which dog has flushed?

Amendment 26 seeks to retain the requirement to provide evidence to accompany an application for a GRC. It will specifically retain sections from the 2004 act to ensure that legitimate concerns of parents, young people and gender identity experts regarding the removal of safeguards are addressed. The Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill would remove the requirement for medical evidence and would reduce the period for which applicants must live in their acquired gender before applying for a GRC from two years to three months. The Scottish Government wants to have a system of legal gender recognition that is based on statutory declaration rather than a gender dysphoria diagnosis.

Can the cabinet secretary cite evidence from other countries where the impact of reform has been evident from these emerging policies? Can she comment on the prediction that removing a gender dysphoria diagnosis will not extend GRCs to a much larger and more diverse group, including predatory men? How will vulnerable individuals be supported without medical support? How will undiagnosed conditions be picked up? What evidence does the Scottish Government have that dropping the requirement to provide medical evidence is best for everyone? Surely that stance is entirely subjective.

Finally, why does anyone without gender dysphoria need to change their sex in law? NHS guidance says:

“social transition should only be considered where the approach is necessary for the alleviation of, or prevention of, clinically significant distress or significant impairment in social functioning and the young person is fully able to comprehend the implications of affirming a social transition”.

Doctors caring for youngsters who are distressed about their gender have been told that it is not a neutral act to help them to transition socially by using their preferred new names and pronouns. The draft guidelines say that doctors should carefully explore underlying health problems, including mental ill health, amid concerns that the NHS is rushing children on to irreversible puberty blocker medication.

A significant proportion of children and young people who are concerned about or distressed by issues of gender incongruence experience co-existing mental health, neurodevelopmental and/or family or social complexities in their lives. A number of doctors, including Dr Antony Latham, the chair of the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, Dr Anne Williams, the vice-chair, and Dr Calum MacKellar, the director of research, said:

“Unfortunately, the Stage 1 Report on the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which was published by the Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee of the Scottish Parliament on the 6 October 2022, has not sufficiently considered the evidence of mental disorders which are often present with gender dysphoria. As a result, the recommendations given by the majority of ���˿��� preparing the report are unsafe and should be rejected ... In summary, the majority position in the report from the Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee is unworthy of the high expectations of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people since it is unreasonable, unprofessional, and does not sufficiently address the biomedical evidence. Moreover, if the Scottish Parliament does accept the majority view of the Committee in removing the requirement of a medical opinion before gender transitioning takes place, this will ... lead to some young persons being harmed”.

They also said:

“Moreover, research shows that many children with gender dysphoria have significant psychological and psychosocial vulnerabilities ... Thus, without a medical appraisal, it is very likely that many young persons may embark on risky life-changing procedures which they do not understand. This is all the more concerning since follow-up studies indicate that, overall, the distress experienced by young people affected by gender dysphoria disappears in about 85% of cases either before or early in puberty though the rates in ... studies vary widely.”

With regard to living in the acquired gender, three months is too short a time for such a life-changing decision, especially for 16 to 17-year-olds, who are going through significant changes, such as puberty, and doing exams. Furthermore, living in the acquired gender for just three months without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria might not be enough time for an individual to seek medical help or support with mental health, if needed.

It appears that many stakeholders are concerned that clarity is required on what living in an acquired gender even means. A period of two years provides sufficient safeguarding.

The bill as drafted will extend the ability to obtain legal gender recognition to 16 and 17-year-olds. My amendments seek to retain the current minimum age required to apply for a gender recognition certificate at 18, based on a statutory declaration and without any form of medical oversight.

My concerns and those of my colleagues relate to lowering the age to below 18 in Scotland. I recognise that 16 is the age of legal capacity in Scotland. However, higher age limits apply to several matters that are of less significance than changing legal sex, such as purchasing alcohol or cigarettes, getting a tattoo and driving a car.

Recently, the Scottish Government sought to incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law. The UNCRC defines anyone under the age of 18 as a child. Susan Smith from For Women Scotland said:

“people are not cognitively mature until they are about 25.” —[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 31 May 2022; c 27.]

Other countries take a more conservative approach to the age limit for applying for a GRC. In Denmark, for example, one must be 18 to legally change gender, while in countries such as Belgium and Argentina, parental consent is required for those under the age of 18.

Furthermore, the Scottish Government is pursuing an inconsistent approach to defining maturity. Scottish sentencing guidelines refer to the sentencing of those under 25, claiming that they are not cognitively developed and

“have a lower level of maturity, and a greater capacity for change”.

According to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the change in the bill

“increases the likelihood that trans pupils with GRCs are present in educational establishments in Scotland. This has implications for the operation of the education provisions of the Equality Act – its specific exceptions to direct discrimination for education providers would not apply in the same way as they do now (because people under the age of 18 currently cannot obtain a GRC).

At present, the law allows schools to take a proportionate approach to balancing the needs of trans pupils with those of other pupils.”

It goes on to say that the changes proposed in the bill might require educational establishments in Scotland to

“treat trans young people with a GRC as having their acquired gender for all purposes, including in a single-sex school, leaving the school potentially open to direct discrimination claims if it sought to balance the needs of trans and other pupils.”

I would welcome the minister providing clarity on that point about the position for single-sex schools, should the bill be passed unamended.

The Scottish Government has dismissed the findings of Dr Hilary Cass’s interim review as not being relevant to Scotland, which is contrary to the stance taken by the First Minister in comparing NHS England with NHS Scotland when answering questions at First Minister’s question time. We share the view of stakeholders that it is prudent to wait for the final conclusions and recommendations of the Cass review before moving to make legal recognition of gender available to 16 and 17-year-olds in Scotland.

The Scottish Government fails to recognise that providing a route to a change of status in law is a form of social transition and is therefore not a neutral undertaking. The Scottish Government and the majority of the committee appear determined to deny any risk that affirming a young person’s self-declared gender identity might encourage them on to a medicalised pathway in a setting where the evidence base is lacking.

Given the stakes, every law that we make must be supported by robust analysis. We think that there are hard questions to ask about Scotland’s gender identity services for young people, especially considering the lack of robust data on clinical outcomes. In the absence of better information about the cohort of 16 and 17-year-olds experiencing gender incongruence, ���˿��� are being asked to make a very significant decision affecting a vulnerable group, based largely on some young people’s strongly—and no doubt genuinely—expressed desires and the amplification of those voices by adults who are strongly committed in principle to an affirmation-based approach.

The basis appears shaky in assuming that decisions here will have no spillover effect on national health service services and that any emerging legal risks can be ignored. It does not appear unreasonable for ���˿��� to decide that NHS Scotland needs time to consider the final Cass review recommendations before we consider lowering the age for a GRC. The Bayswater Support Group for parents put it like this:

“Our children deserve the same level of care and safeguarding as their English counterparts and it is incumbent on our lawmakers to consider the needs of vulnerable young people when considering this bill.”

I urge members of the committee to consider the crystal-clear arguments that I have presented today and to support the retention of the current minimum age of 18 required to apply for a GRC.

I move amendment 18.

Could I withdraw my vote on amendment 71? It was meant to be a yes. Is that possible? If not, I will just state that I supported it and that will be recorded in the Official Report. Sorry about that.

On the basis of what Pam Duncan-Glancy said, I am sympathetic to amendment 126, and so is my colleague Pam Gosal. However, I want reassurance from the cabinet secretary. Are you expecting the registrar general to make a clinical judgment on whether a person is terminally ill, rather than a healthcare professional?

Given that I have lodged amendments that would increase the period for which someone must live in the acquired gender to the status quo, I believe not only that the current Scottish Government proposal of a three-month period is inadequate but that the absence of any reflection period could lead to young and distressed people rushing into life-changing decisions that they may later regret. That is especially true if it is coupled with medical alterations such as hormone or puberty blockers and surgery. Furthermore, a reflection period could prevent so-called bad-faith actors from taking advantage of the changes and intruding into single-sex spaces.

Weakening the provisions in the bill would make it even worse, so I cannot support amendments 87 to 89. However, I am happy to support amendment 141, because I believe that it is important that the Scottish Government reviews the period for which a trans person is required to live in the acquired gender. I know that Maggie Chapman wishes to reduce the period and I want to increase it, but I think that we can find common ground and agree that reviewing the evidence will allow the Scottish Government to make a more informed decision in future.

My question is on a point of clarification. On 6 October, the committee agreed that interpretations of whether someone was living in the acquired gender could lead to reinforcement of gender stereotypes and that it would be unacceptable to enshrine that in law. Do you agree with that?

To clarify, will that be in the guidance for the registrar general? Will there be a definition of what it means to live in an acquired gender?