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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 June 2025
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Displaying 1943 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

I know that we will disagree on this, because I still do not believe that rough shooting can be used as a cover for other activities.

I made two clear points: that the only activity that is done in rough shooting is flushing, and that in rough shooting, the bag is mixed quarry. On that basis, there is almost no event for which a proposed exception for rough shooting could be used as a cover, because it is so different.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

As you know, I have an interest in the hospitality business. The licences in that business are slightly different, as individuals take quite stringent exams to get to the point at which they are issued with a licence.

It is not necessarily fair to compare apples and pears in these circumstances. Although people have to have a gun licence and be competent to have a gun and so on, such comparisons slightly confuse the situation. In licensing, we need more clarity and succinctness, rather than trying to muddy the waters with comparisons with other industries that may be slightly different.

12:15  

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

Yes.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

With regard to those amendments, BASC, the Kennel Club and Scotland’s Regional Moorland Groups have all highlighted the bill’s unintended consequences for field trials. Gun dog trials test the working ability of such dogs in competitive conditions and follow strict regulations set out by the Kennel Club, a well-respected organisation that puts a large amount of resource into developing robust and rigorous guidance on the safe, lawful and humane operation of field trials. That is reflected in these amendments.

Similar to amendment 142, amendment 143, alongside its consequential amendments in my name, allows for field trials to continue unhindered and, for those who partake, confidence that they can carry out that activity unhindered. In response to a recent parliamentary question, the minister confirmed:

“Field trials which only involve the hunting of birds are not covered by the provisions of this Bill.

For field trials that involve the use of dogs to hunt wild mammals the participants will have to abide by the provisions of the Bill.”—[Written Answers, 10 November 2022; S6W-11800.]

However, we know that gun dogs are used to flush wild mammals during field trials, with the dogs not chasing or killing them. As with rough shooting, therefore, an exception would be required. Again, I would be grateful if the minister could put on record whether field trials fall under the bill’s scope and, if not, whether she and committee members would support my amendment for an exception to allow this legitimate activity to proceed lawfully and unhindered.

On amendment 227, the minister has stated that she is unwilling to pursue an exception for rough shooting, despite my clearly setting out the various parameters ensuring that an exception would not or could not be used as a loophole for other illegal activity. I therefore direct members’ attention to amendment 227, which recognises that, during a rough shoot,

“more than two dogs ... are not working simultaneously”

and

“more than two dogs ... do not work together in a pack or in formation.”

I reiterate that, as has been made clear by rural organisations and others, there is no intention during a rough shoot for dogs to form a pack, unlike with other activities. One person uses their own dog or two dogs to flush their own quarry, working in proximity to others, but they do not allow their dogs to form a pack. An exception specifically for rough shooting must be sought for that legitimate activity to continue. It should not be licensed, as that is neither a practical option nor the intention of this bill; as a result, an exception or other mechanism to allow rough shooting to continue unhindered must be considered. I welcome the thoughts of ˿ and the minister on that.

On amendment 228, the wording used in section 6(3) is highly emotive, and the amendment would replace it with neutral language that rural stakeholders feel to be more appropriate. I would add that the objective is to kill the wild mammal for purposes set out in the bill, not simply for it to be “attacked”. The term “kill” is used throughout the rest of section 6, and the amendment would ensure drafting consistency.

Thank you for your forbearance, convener.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

For the record, am I correct in thinking that field trials fall under the scope of the bill?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

Will the minister take an intervention on that point?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

I would like to come back to the minister to have a look at those amendments. I followed what she said on amendment 205, but I ask for clarification of the other amendment that she mentioned. Was it 222?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

The licensing scheme has not.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Rachael Hamilton

I ask Colin Smyth what he means by evidence of “state of mind”.