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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 August 2025
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Displaying 1619 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

I indicate to Katy Clark that the Conservatives will support both amendments in the group if she presses them to a vote.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

I appreciate that the circumstances are in some ways abstract. We understand that powers are needed for pandemics and other health emergencies; such provisions are common to other legislatures. More extreme unplanned situations that have arisen in other countries include a prison fire, when people needed to be released quickly. That led to huge amounts of absconding, because people never came back after they left the prison gates. It would help if the Government were a bit clearer about what scenarios might constitute an emergency that such a power might be suitable for.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

We would be happy to support amendment 6.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

As it is not my amendment, I will let Russell Findlay speak to it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

I will in a second.

Amendment 38 goes a step further. I am not necessarily saying that the Government should not have the power; all I would be doing through my amendment is providing that regulations under section 3 be subject to the affirmative procedure—full stop. There would be no exceptions to that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

For the benefit of the cabinet secretary’s understanding, the rationale for the amendment was that victim support organisations themselves had written to the committee to say that they would like to be involved in the delivery, not just in the planning. That is in black and white.

If we want to know what they think their role is, perhaps we and the Government should ask them, and then they would not have to write to us the night before stage 2 consideration. I strongly advise that either the committee or the Government speak to the three organisations in question ahead of stage 3. If they feel that there is no role in delivery but there is a role in planning, we can find a way around that.

Of course, there are other ways of amending the bill as it is. The proposed new section 34A on “Duty to engage in release planning” is a duty to engage, not a duty to deliver. That whole paragraph, which refers to statutory “persons” and their role

“in the development, management and delivery of the release plan”,

could easily be split into two sections. There could be a group of people who are statutory named persons involved in development, and another group who are involved in delivery. As you rightly pointed out, cabinet secretary, there is a difference.

There will be solutions to that issue that will not place undue statutory duties on organisations that do not want or need them, but which, equally, will reflect the views of those organisations. I am sure that my colleague and I will work on such amendments with the Government, as it is willing to do so.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

I support the amendments. The additional point that I want to make before the cabinet secretary responds is that we looked at the issue quite constructively at stage 1. There is clearly an identifiable issue, historically, of prisoners being released on a Friday without access to good and proper public services. I suspect that that is the reason why we stopped releasing people on Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays. Many of the public services that people rely on upon release were reduced on those days.

Our concern, which perhaps underlines the amendments, is that the solution to that problem is not to condense the number of days on which someone can be released. That is a technical solution to the problem, but it does not solve the problem. The problem is that we should be improving access to services upon release and not simply releasing the same number of people but to a much shorter timescale. The concern that we have heard about that is that it will put huge pressure on the very public services that we are trying to ensure are delivered to prisoners on release, including services provided by social work departments and local authorities. The capacity of such public services is already quite overstretched. If they can provide services only from Monday to Wednesday, instead of having five days to staff those services, it either means reduced access to services or some people not getting the attention that they need upon release.

I think that we all understand the Government’s intention, but do we really need to put it in primary legislation? Could the Government have been a little more ambitious and made this a short-term measure, with a view to improving services so that we can use Mondays to Fridays in the way that they are used by the wider public? We understand the Government’s intention, but the bill seems like a blanket approach to the problem—and not necessarily one that will fix it, either.

If the Government is not minded to accept the amendments, one solution might be to make the provision temporary and, if the Government is so inclined, to commit in the bill to monitoring outcomes and taking action as a result. After all, what we do not want to see a couple of years down the line is Wednesday or Thursday being seen as the new Friday and people still being failed. That is clearly not an outcome that anybody wants, and I ask the Government to reflect on that, too.

09:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 17 May 2023

Jamie Greene

I have only one amendment in the group—amendment 99. For the record, I support all the amendments in the group.

It is notable that the group consists of three sets of amendments from three members of the committee, all of which seek to do what many organisations have asked us to do, which is to give the third sector a greater role and to ensure that there is greater consideration of victims throughout release planning, in the absence of any Government amendments to do so. I hope that, even if the Government is not willing to accept overtly any of the amendments in the group, it will at least commit to take some of them away. We will hear more about that shortly.

Section 9, “Duty to engage in release planning”, lists the persons who have a statutory duty to engage on release planning: the local authority; the health board; Police Scotland; Skills Development Scotland; and the integration joint board. To be fair to the Government, section 9 goes on to say that, in complying with that duty, those persons

“must have regard to the role which third sector bodies are able to play in the development ... of the release plan”

and “may commission services” from them.

It is widely understood that the third sector could include some of the organisations that we have referred to this morning. However, the problem is that they can be involved only if they are commissioned by any of the parties that are named in new section 34A(2) of the 2016 act—the named persons who have the statutory duty. Therefore, there is scope in that section for the Government to provide for a more direct relationship between the Scottish Prison Service and the third sector instead of third sector bodies having to go through an intermediary—in this case, the local authority, the health board, SDS or the IJB. If my interpretation of that is wrong, I am happy to be corrected. It feels as though there is a missing element there, which is why so many of us have ideas about how to amend the section.

My amendment 99, on the reporting requirement, is similar to Katy Clark’s amendment 40, which I support. I suspect that the Government will say that it is looking at the wider reporting requirements that have been added into various sections of the bill. As I understand it, we heard earlier a commitment to making, in part 2 of the bill, greater provision with regard to reporting requirements.

11:45  

I think that amendment 99 would be a sensible addition. In fact, I was trying to be fair to the Government; I actually thought that a year was quite a tight timeframe for producing such a report, so I kindly changed it to three years, which is why there is a separate amendment of a very similar nature. I would be content with either timeframe, and I note that, in the correspondence that we received from Victim Support Scotland yesterday, it said that it preferred one year but would be equally content with three.

I also want to put on record another interesting point that the organisation made. Although, as drafted, the persons who must comply in the development of release plans

“must have regard to the role which third sector bodies are able to play”,

Victim Support Scotland proposes that new section 34A of the 2016 act be amended to explicitly provide for victims of crime and victim support organisations to be involved and consulted in the development, management and delivery of the release plan. Some of the amendments in this group address that, and VSS understands why and, as a result, strongly supports them. I therefore hope that we get some positive responses from the Government on this group of amendments.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 10 May 2023

Jamie Greene

The Crown agent should be given flexibility to change their mind on the day—notwithstanding what it says in the centrally marked papers—if further information that is relevant to the complainer or the victim comes to light during proceedings, and many of us have tried to insert that into the bill through amendments. The Crown might choose to oppose bail on the day, and it should have that power and flexibility. Whether or not the agent has the confidence and experience to do so is an entirely different matter; as we know, that is a whole other kettle of fish. Equally, the Crown might choose not to oppose bail, given further information that comes to light up until the point of the hearing. We know that they rattle through cases speedily on the day—there are many cases to get through—so I am not entirely convinced that everyone is in receipt of all the information that is needed.

Amendment 62 takes it a little bit further, because it says that the prosecutor

“must give the court opinion as to any risk of something occurring”

so that the court can make a consideration on what the impact of granting an offender bail would be.

In essence, all my amendments seek to strengthen the process so that victims’ rights are at the heart of decision making. As drafted, the bill does not do that. I hope that the Government will be open to that, because I am not the only one asking for it. It is not only the judiciary that has voiced concerns; victims organisations have as well. They are on the record as saying that—it is all in the stage 1 report and in the evidence that the committee received.

I am happy to look at amendments 61 and 62 if they are problematic on a technical level. That is absolutely fine, and I am willing to talk to the cabinet secretary about that. However, my other amendments in the group would give judges the flexibility that they need; it cannot be an “and” situation. The new two-step test will tie the hands of judges. It is up to the Government to explain why it does not.

I will let other members speak to their amendments in the group.

10:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 10 May 2023

Jamie Greene

The point is echoed by the commentary from victims organisations. With serial or repeat offenders, there is a history. It might not necessarily be relevant to the case that is in front of the court when a decision has to be made about remand, but it might well be. I guess that the victims organisations seek some comfort and security that that will still be a factor somehow.

The question is how existing legislation or the bill provides for that and how we ensure that it does not remove the judge’s ability to consider a pattern of behaviour—domestic abuse is a good example—and say that, because of that pattern, perhaps with other parties or previous partners, there might be a risk to the complainer in the case that is in front of them on the day. Is it technically possible and legal to do that? Is there a mechanism for that information to be made available to the judge when he has to make the remand decision?

The victims organisations have a valid concern. I am not sure whether the statement that has just been given will give them any comfort. We will not know until after the meeting, of course.