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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 June 2025
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Displaying 1578 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Just to be clear, it was not a performance-related issue. There were no operational issues. It was solely, as you said, a policy decision. I will not use the word “political”, as that would not be fair on you, but it was certainly a ministerial decision that the Government wanted to go in that direction of travel, irrespective of the cost.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

In your previous appearance before the committee, which I will not revisit, we talked quite extensively about the pressures on the prison population. Where is HMP Kilmarnock in that regard? Is it one of the ones in the red? Is it nearing capacity? Do we have any issues there?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

You cannot go through a supermarket without being greeted by somebody with a body-worn camera. It seems odd that our prison staff do not have them.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

We look forward to that.

My second question is about PFI contracts, where there is still a bit more digging to be done and other members might do that. I am still a bit confused about how many such contracts are coming to an end in the next couple of years and what the cost to the public purse will be. We may revisit that before we end this evidence session, but do you expect those contracts to come to a natural end or are ministers mooting an early contract termination on some of them? There is a difference there and I presume there is a cost.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

My first question is to Teresa Medhurst. I appreciate that you may not want to answer this, but I will give it a try anyway. Did you want to take ownership of HMP Kilmarnock?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Mr Rennick, you are next, I am afraid. Back in 2022, when I sat on the Justice Committee, I asked a similar question about the difference between privately run prisons and Government-run ones, and the response from His Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons response was that HMP Kilmarnock

“is the cheapest prison in Scotland”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 9 November 2022; c 8.]

to run. My initial question is: was the decision to move the prison into public ownership based on value for money or was it solely a policy decision?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

As the Public Audit Committee, we obviously have an interest in money, and I am still struggling to get my head around any comparison. I am yet to see, on paper anyway, what the prison cost to run in an average year under Serco and what it will cost to run under SPS. We do not have that comparison, which I think is unfortunate.

What we know about the figures is that the average cost per prisoner is around £52,000 a year under Serco’s direction and management. Can you tell me what that number will look like under the SPS? Is it higher or lower?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Did your directorate do any modelling of what the potential financial impact on the public purse might be? It is easy to say that we should wait and see what it costs, but that is the mop-up after. Should that work not have been done before the transfer?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Finally, I guess that what matters is outcomes. The prison is not a hotel; the issue is not just about turnover and the number of people who come through it and how much it costs to run it. What analysis has been done of what benefits may be reaped from the prison being under the control of the SPS rather than Serco? For example, what is the staff to prisoner ratio before and after the changeover? What do the reoffending rates look like? What are the rehabilitation rates? What do the drug and contraband figures look like at HMP Kilmarnock versus the average for the rest of the estate? It would be useful to see those sorts of metrics and that analysis. Have you done any of that work?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Thanks for the update. I will come back in later with some PFI questions.