łÉČËżěĘÖ

Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 June 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 1578 contributions

|

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Can I stop you there for a second? I am still trying to get my head around this. According to what you have just said, there are two reasons why we are so far under the target. Overall, you said that there were three points, but the first one is a positive—the number of emergency admissions is going down, which is good news. However, the other two points are not positives. You are saying that the age profile of people and the fact that they stay in hospital a little bit longer than they used to are the reasons why so many people are sitting in accident and emergency for eight or nine hours. I do not see the link. Please explain it to me.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

I have a final question. How much is being spent on agency staff?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

I have some numbers. That is in the hundreds of millions of pounds. It is a lot of money, and having agency staff is way more expensive than having full-time equivalent staff. There is all this talk about privatising the health service. You are already privatising it if you are outsourcing work to agencies that charge hundreds of pounds per hour.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

If and when you discover that newer data is available, please share it with us. We are looking for trends, as we often do, and we want to interrogate that information.

It looks as though the overall head count is on the rise. The figure of 187,000 is up from 183,000 last September. People will say that there are far more people in the NHS than there were before, yet everything that we have discussed—such as waiting times, delayed discharges and staff shortages—is still happening. There are more people in the system, and the Government is spending more money on it, but outcomes are poor. My question is: why is that the case?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Do not even start me on dentistry—otherwise, we will be here all day.

I will park my question on digital records, in case others want to come in.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Yes, but I am not interested in every other part of the UK. This is the Scottish Parliament, and you are the chief executive of NHS Scotland. I mean this respectfully: I simply want to know what is going wrong in Scotland’s A and Es.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

I appreciate that update.

The problem with delayed discharge, or bed blocking, as it is commonly called, is that it is exactly that—it is bed blocking. I presume that that is bad for two reasons. The person who is languishing in hospital, who should not or does not need to be there, would rather be, and should be, somewhere else, wherever that is. Equally, there is someone at the other end of the spectrum who could be occupying that bed but is on a waiting list—and we all know what waiting lists look like at the moment.

It seems to me that half of the job is yours, and you are doing your best, but the other half of the solution is not working, because you cannot discharge people if you have nowhere to put them and there is no plan in place to look after them. You have a duty of care to look after your patients, and you would not want to send them out to their homes with no care package and with nobody to look after them, so you keep them—I understand that.

Is that your mitigation? Are you saying, “We’ve done as much as we can, but local authorities haven’t got the money to look after folks, so we have to keep them.”?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Mr McCallum, this must make for very uncomfortable listening. You are director of health and social care. We have heard from health professionals what the issue is. They cannot get people out of hospital because the social care system is not delivering, but people in the social care system will say, “There are simply far too many people being put into our system and we haven’t got the money to deliver the care.” From a holistic point of view, have you got this all wrong?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

I was trying to let you off the hook a little bit there, but okay.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Anybody who speaks to local authorities will know that they are really struggling. For example, there are simply not enough places in care homes and there are not enough staff to treat people in their own homes. Frankly, when someone is in a hospital environment, that is not seen as the local authorities’ problem; it is the NHS’s problem. There does not seem to be any joined-up thinking. I appreciate what you say about integration boards but, for far too many people, the system is simply not working. If it was working, we would not have so many people in delayed discharge or struggling to get a place in a care home, and we would not have so many people having to pay to go private.

Do you admit that there is an issue? Given the numbers that we have just spoken about and that things are getting worse, not better, it sounds a bit like an emergency that we need to deal with.