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What are some of the elements that you think are missing in terms of transparency from the Government that would allow the public to make an informed decision as to where the money is coming from?

Exhibit 4, which shows the barriers to accessing support, sums up the issues. It covers alcohol and drugs, but it talks us through the user journey very nicely, from the point of someone seeking help as an individual through to their getting help and then staying on the path to recovery. The list of barriers is unbelievable. There are so many barriers to people getting from the point where they identify that they have a problem to coming out the other side and being supported and in a better place in life.

I find the barriers that you have identified and the way that you have presented them to be quite extreme and quite shocking, to be honest. Perhaps that identifies the problem, because some people will engage with one or two of those issues on their journey, and others will face them all. Is that part of the problem? Perhaps that is the answer to my first question about why Scotland has such a big issue.

Is that because alcohol is legal and commonplace? You would not need to walk very far from this room to buy alcohol this afternoon—arguably, the same could be true for drugs—but my point is that we have a different view of alcohol. Drugs are illegal, for want of a better term, but there is societal acceptance of everyday drinking—the phrases “acceptable norms”, “social drinking” and “safe levels of drinking” are all used. Is it just the case that we have a different take on alcohol? If the law suddenly made alcohol illegal, perhaps everyone would have a bigger focus on it, and if drugs were legalised in some shape or form, perhaps there would be a different societal view. Is how we perceive the harms just relative?

Based on some of the focus group work that you did and your conversations with stakeholders, would you say that the issues are massively underreported? Back in 2014, public health research showed that only one in four people who were dependent on alcohol or drugs was engaged in services. I believe that we are waiting for updated figures for the past decade to see whether access to and take-up of services have improved.

Do you think that alcohol issues are massively underreported? With alcohol, it is more difficult to spot problematic behaviours and to identify people who have dependency issues until they present with an extreme issue, whereas people with drug dependency issues perhaps present more quickly and sooner to health services and in a much graver or more extreme condition. Is the Government on top of that? Is it identifying the undercurrent of underreporting and the problem that exists in society but that is not being helped in any way by a public service?

I know what is in the report; it is here in black and white. However, if the ministers are sitting watching this committee meeting—I know that everyone watches the broadcast of the Public Audit Committee on a Thursday morning—what is the overarching theme that you want them to take away from your report?

You will probably not answer this question, but in that case, what is the point of having a Minister for Drugs and Alcohol Policy at all if we do not have that bigger picture? All the questions that you have just raised are completely valid. They are in the report, and you have reiterated them today. We get the same feedback time after time about the lack of governance, lack of structure and lack of ambition, about knowing whether the money is going to the right people at the right time and whether it is being spent in the right way, and about getting best value.

The governance arrangements seem to be all over the place in relation to who those lines feed back to. Ultimately, you could argue that they all feed back to the minister who is in charge of it all and who is tasked with delivering progress, but it is clear that we are not seeing progress. Things are going in the wrong direction, not in the right direction. I am not asking you to comment on the policy, but you have analysed the outcomes and they do not look great. Anyway, that is perhaps a statement rather than a question, which is a bit unfair.

I want to talk about residential rehab, which is an important issue. It comes up frequently in Parliament, and I am trying to get my head around it. I have done a lot of work in this space, asked a lot of questions of Government and met a lot of stakeholders, but I still cannot work out whether we are heading in the right direction on residential rehabilitation for alcohol and drugs. There are instances where residential rehab is required for people with both those addictions, because sometimes people present with both addictions. You talk about the £100 million for residential rehab in your report, but you state in bold and big letters that you do not know whether that is enough. How will we know whether that is enough? How many beds do we need?

Residential rehab will not be suitable for everyone for lots of the reasons that you identify on page 33 of your report. From a practical point of view, services are not meeting people’s needs, whether that is because of where they are located or the type of service that is offered—for example, for mothers or for people who have additional issues that mean that they need mental health support alongside rehabilitation or detoxification services. Therefore, there are reasons why the service is not suitable for everyone.

However, it seems that you are saying that by planning a huge increase in residential rehab, you are admitting to failure much earlier in the system, because people should not have to get to the point where they need to spend eight, 10 or 12 weeks in a residential care setting. Their addiction problems should be treated much earlier, which would negate the need for increased bed capacity. Is that what you are saying?

Despite the target, I am aware of a number of providers that are really struggling to access public funding to deliver the expansion. Cornilius Chikwama spoke about the Corra Foundation funding. However, I have visited rehab centres that have had applications knocked back for funding from the residential rehabilitation rapid capacity programme from Corra and other pots of cash. The situation with regard to access to public money to expand capacity is a real pick-and-mix picture. One facility had planning permission to expand its capacity by a third, from 24 to 32 beds. However, the charity is having to raise the money privately by going out with a begging bowl in order to get enough cash to build the beds. Given that there is apparently a big national push and a Government mission to increase capacity, it seems to be incredible that so many providers are struggling to access the money for that. There is now a huge freeze on capital investment anyway, and the money for the expansion does not seem to be ring fenced. Increasing bed capacity is not ideal, but even those who are trying to do that are struggling. Have you come across that situation?

We are short of time, Auditor General, but if you had one key message for the Government off the back of the report, what would it be?

I appreciate that clarification. I respect the role that Audit Scotland plays, and I know the limitations of what such a report can do. Nonetheless, Audit Scotland and you, as the Auditor General, chose to do the report, and this is not the first time that Audit Scotland has commented on the issue, so there is clearly an interest in the subject matter. Others will have their own views and comments on the issue, but they will often come from a specific angle in representing a specific organisation or sector.

Ultimately, we cannot answer my question. We cannot pinpoint the reason, and that is part of the problem. If we in this room—the Auditor General and members of the Scottish Parliament—cannot answer the question of why we have such a problem, it will be very difficult to fix. That is one of my concerns.

I do not downplay the importance of addressing the issue of those who, sadly, lose their lives to drugs, but does the focus on drugs come at the expense of talking about Scotland’s problem with alcohol?