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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 1578 contributions

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Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

I guess that it is important not to look at the project through the prism of a single-year ask. Even though we are talking about just the first year of that three-year spend and the money is being spread out, you are essentially asking for sign-off of the whole project. We have spoken a lot about how much the project will cost and how much you need to do it, but we have not heard a huge amount about what comes out the other end. What are the savings involved? We probably do not have time to go into all that today, so I will park that there.

I would like to see a breakdown of the overall cost, particularly the £670,000 for this year, to understand the terminology of “resource” versus “capital” and so on. In providing that, you could perhaps paint a rosier picture of why spending £2 million on modernisation will save money down the line.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

I had been saving up this question for when we came on to the fees issue, but I note that a third of your auditing is undertaken by external firms. I appreciate that you have a multiyear deal with them and that you are obliged to increase their fees to you—by 4 per cent this year, if I am not mistaken.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That is interesting, bearing in mind what we are looking at for next year and your asks there. I presume that the increase includes year 2 of the pay deal that was agreed, which involves an increase of 3.8 per cent. However, does it include or exclude the national insurance contribution increases? I presume that they were not factored into your initial projections for 2025-26.

11:45  

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

You have come to the table asking for a 10 per cent increase overall, which is substantial. I am trying to break it down into the constituent parts to make it easier to scrutinise. A big chunk of that is the national insurance contribution. I am trying to find out why Audit Scotland felt that this was the mechanism to try to recuperate that money.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Something else that struck me about that table on page 12 is the staff projections. Please do not take this in any way as a criticism, but it jumped out at me. For the years 2024-25, 2025-26, 2026-27 and 2027-28, you have projected pretty much the same number of staff. It is very unusual in an organisation to have such certainty, year on year. In addition—maybe this is a question for the board—does having the same numbers of people scream of efficiency and productivity improvements? Do you suspect that the volume of work will be the same? Will you need more people to do more work, because of the change in working hours? I am trying to get my head around this, because it strikes me as such an unusual forecast in a big organisation.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

In essence, you are saying that your current cost estimate for the modernisation project is about £2.2 million—that is a back of a fag packet analysis—and you are splitting that over three financial years, with the first tranche being an ask of £672,000 for next year and an expectation of £1.5 million over the following two years’ budgets. Is that correct?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That is much appreciated—thank you.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Could Audit Scotland provide better support to small and medium-sized auditing firms in Scotland that are more localised to their clients and which are spread across your four geographic office areas? After all, four very big international companies are soaking up huge amounts of public money here.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That is helpful and insightful, and I agree with much of what you have said. At the end of the day, the people who are involved are often sick or elderly. People just want the best treatment for their family members and loved ones—they want them to be looked after in the right place. It seems to me that the blockage at that end is causing massive issues in the process, right from A and E all the way through to care. That must be addressed.

The page in your report that struck me the most is page 48, which is in appendix 3. We often get graphs and tables in your helpful reports, and the table on page 48 really stood out as the most shocking one. It is not on A and E but on planned care. The three main targets by which we measure the success of the NHS are on out-patients, in-patients and planned care treatment times—the targets on those are 95 per cent, 100 per cent and 90 per cent respectively. That is ambitious and the targets are high, but not one of them is being met.

In the way that you present data to the committee, we expect to see little green ticks next to any targets that are met. On page 48, not a single health board in Scotland has a green tick next to it. Not a single health board in Scotland is meeting any of the out-patient or in-patient targets. That is shocking.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Okay—thank you.