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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1131 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Rona Mackay

I will be brief. We are having an interesting discussion and it has been an interesting session. We are learning that if we keep doing the same thing budget-wise, things will not get better. In fact, they will get worse. It goes back to the points that John Swinney and Bill Fitzpatrick made about the sector getting together to discuss how we can do things differently. You know that if we cut the Scottish Prison Service budget in the next budget, there would be an outcry, because the preparatory work for that has not been done.

Is it possible for you and the Government to effect change in the way that is needed? As Bill Fitzpatrick said, quite rightly, it has not happened, and people are protecting their own areas. That needs to change. Being a bit simplistic about it, if we put fewer people in prison, which we aim to do, prison should not need such a huge budget and that money could be put into community justice. I am certainly no economist but until we start having the conversation about change, nothing will happen. Am I right?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Rona Mackay

Laura Buchan, your submission said a similar thing, but it sounds like you are well down the road to trauma-informed practice. Therefore, why would that need lots more investment?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Rona Mackay

I get that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Rona Mackay

It is all interlinked.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Rona Mackay

I am sorry to interrupt you. Should the onus of that not be on you in the legal profession to make sure that they have it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Rona Mackay

Jamie Foulis, you said in your opening statement that you are broadly in favour of a commissioner and that, in your view, they could be there to represent the interests of victims or witnesses. Given the fact that they cannot be involved in individual cases, how effective do you think that would be? Would your preference be that they were involved in individual cases?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Rona Mackay

You have said that things have been changing over the years, but I am talking about recent accounts of complainers’ experiences in the courts. Either what you have said is not happening or there is no judicial intervention, but something has to change.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Rona Mackay

Do you think that there could be a role in that for the commissioner?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Rona Mackay

First of all, I am pleased to hear you say that you will embrace trauma-informed practice. Jonathan Campbell, you said that you would always take a sensitive approach, but as I think that you will appreciate, there is a difference between taking a sensitive approach and being trauma informed.

Most of what I was going to ask has already been asked by Mr Swinney, but I would just highlight that the committee has taken countless pieces of evidence from women—primarily, victims of sex offences—who have said that their court experience was often worse than the actual crime itself, mainly because of defence lawyers. I am trying to believe you when you say that things will change, but as far as the committee’s experience is concerned, we are not hearing of victims being dealt with sensitively. As I have said, this is along the same lines as Mr Swinney’s questions, but how will you evaluate and monitor whether that sort of thing is actually happening, if this bill is passed?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2023

Rona Mackay

I want to give a wee update. Stuart Munro mentioned the bairns’ hoose. For the record, the Scottish Government has put £6 million into funding six bairns’ hooses. Those are in Fife, north Strathclyde—that one was mentioned—Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen city, Tayside and the Outer Hebrides. They are coming down the line, which is good news.