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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1131 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Rona Mackay

Good morning. Joe, I want to pick up my colleague’s point about reasonable doubt. As I understand it, in order for a case to come to court, there must be reasonable evidence. If that evidence cannot be proved, the verdict must be “not guilty”. That is a simplification, but that is how I see it.

You also made a point about not knowing what the jury majority was in a not proven verdict. I had not even thought about that. As you put it, that muddies the waters even more. I agree with that.

I want to ask you both about not majorities but jury size. For the record, would you keep it at 15, or would you make it 12?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Rona Mackay

—and that, after decades of campaigning, there is still confusion. That speaks volumes.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Rona Mackay

That must have been difficult.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Rona Mackay

You prefer 12.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Rona Mackay

I do not have much more to ask, but I echo my colleague Russell Findlay’s comments to you, Mr Duffy, about your campaign. It is astonishing that, even after all your work, families still do not understand what the not proven verdict is—

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 November 2023

Rona Mackay

Good morning. Does the judge explain what not proven is at any point in a real courtroom, either in his summing up or in direction? That is my first question. I genuinely do not know what is actually said.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 November 2023

Rona Mackay

I know—I just thought that, with your background, maybe you would have a view.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 November 2023

Rona Mackay

I accept that—I understand. That is fine.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 November 2023

Rona Mackay

So, when you heard jurors deliberating in the mock trials, did you hear them say, for example, “I don’t think there is enough evidence for that, so we might as well say that it is not proven.”?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 November 2023

Rona Mackay

It is quite surprising to hear that juries will have to make that decision even though they do not fully understand the difference between the two verdicts. Should more training be given to juries? Is the manual adequate in that respect?