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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 August 2025
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Displaying 903 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks to you both.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Do we need to convey that image to the judiciary and to sheriffs as well as to the public, or do they understand that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I take this opportunity to welcome the minister and the cabinet secretary to their new positions, and I thank the minister for her statement at the start of the meeting.

I will follow on from the convener鈥檚 questions. I am very supportive of the bill, as are the stakeholders, as you will be aware. I might be jumping ahead a bit, because it makes provisions for people up to the age of 18, but I am keen to hear where the Government stands on 18 being a starting point. A lot of the evidence that the committee has heard鈥攊ncluding the evidence that we heard privately from two individuals today, which was really powerful鈥攊s that 18 is still very young, as are 21 and 25. Do you have any thoughts on where the Government might see this going? I will come to the minister first.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

The cabinet secretary has pre-empted my next question. In a previous session with stakeholders, we considered whether part of the answer would be for young offenders institutions to be modelled more on secure settings. I know that there would be resourcing issues, but, given that there is a very positive impression of secure care, could young offenders institutions be modelled more on secure settings? Would that be a potential answer to the question?

11:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Yes鈥攖hat is agreed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

On that basis, would you like there to be a change in who makes the decision? I certainly remember that the chief of the social work department or whatever in a local authority makes that decision. As I think you referred to, previously, it would not be every nine months for some of the cross-border cases; it would perhaps be every four to six weeks.

Would you like a change in who makes the decision? Obviously, there can be a lot of variance between local authorities. Should it be somebody more central, or is it more about training for local authorities?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I have another question for Jim Shields, before he comes in. How does the sector engage and interact with the facilities that are run by local authorities? I have not visited the one in Edinburgh that you referred to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you, Linda Allan and Kate Wallace, for your evidence. Linda, it was very powerful when you spoke about your daughter鈥檚 description of people who she was in Polmont with. That is why it is so important that we hear that sort of evidence. As others have done, I want to put on record my thanks to you for coming forward.

I was going to say that my question is a wee bit out of left field, but it is related to what we have been talking about. As Kate is aware鈥攕he has given evidence on it鈥攁nd as you might be aware, Linda, through your research, the committee is also looking at the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill. The purpose of that bill, which is now at stage 2, is to reduce the number of people who are on remand in the first place. There is debate about whether that will work, but that is the main aim of the bill.

Kate, how does that bill overlap with this bill? With regard to the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill, we are considering children under the age of 18 not being placed in custodial settings, so do you think that there is an overlap between the pieces of legislation? How can these two pieces of legislation work together?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks, Kate.

Linda, in response to Rona Mackay, you said that you do not think that the bill goes far enough with regard to age, and I would probably agree with that to an extent; however, I am conscious of the seriousness of offences, which is an important part of it.

How do you think that the Scottish Government can make things better with regard to the appropriateness of remand, to use Kate鈥檚 expression, either with this bill or with other legislation that I referred to, or that does not currently exist? How can we ensure that we are using remand at the right time and that we do not have situations in which people are on remand when they should perhaps not be there, which can make things more difficult for them?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I have one further question, which is for Alison Bavidge. It is about the other side鈥攖he resources, which you mentioned right at the start. What can the bill do in terms of making use of other resources, at community level, to prevent people needing secure care in the first place? I know that that is the million-dollar question. You have touched on it through some of your answers, but I want to give you a chance to expand on that.