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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 August 2025
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Displaying 2119 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I completely disagree with your assertion. As I have said, I fully intend to discuss matters with individual members, just as I undertook meetings with members to discuss potential amendments at stage 2. I intend to have those discussions—and to have them in good time.

It is important that we look at this holistically. As I have set out, there are different requirements in some of these amendments, and it is important that we take these things away, look at them and ensure that we have a workable plan that takes all of that into consideration.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I propose to speak to the amendments in my name before turning to the other amendments in the group. I have listened to the calls from the committee and stakeholders at stage 1 to provide further clarity on what ministers must have regard to in relation to land use in the preparation or amendment of the rural support plan. That is why I have lodged amendment 4.

I want to ensure that it is made clear to all that Scottish ministers have a clear and explicit duty to account for the broadest of considerations and impacts when devising a plan for the future support of agriculture. It might go without saying that such a duty exists, but it is right to put it plainly that Scottish ministers must have regard to statutory duties that relate to agriculture, biodiversity, land use and the environment.

Amendment 42, in the name of Elena Whitham, refers to biodiversity, too. It is a helpful addition that makes clear the breadth of considerations, so I very much welcome its inclusion. It is right that those duties are put at the heart of our rural support plan. I therefore ask the committee to accept amendment 4 in my name and to support Elena Whitham’s amendment 42.

Amendment 5 seeks to place fair work and conditionality, which is a Scottish Government policy across all public support, as a central objective for Scottish Government agricultural support. It puts fair work policy into legislation for all future support, which contributes to making fair work practices the norm in Scottish workplaces and, in doing so, supports the vision for Scotland to become a fair work nation.

I know that amendments in other groups and on other sections of the bill seek to add fair work considerations, but this feels like the best place to put it—at the heart of the rural support plan, from which the details of the framework, future tiers and schemes will flow.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

We want what we include in the bill not to restrict our ability to cap, taper or redistribute. We will undoubtedly come on to that when we discuss amendments in later groupings. It is fundamental to our approach to policy development that we work with our farmers and crofters to see which mechanism works best. I appreciate the evidence that the committee has heard in that regard, but it is important that we go through that process and that we have the flexibility provided in the bill for whatever mechanism we might choose to develop.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 102 seeks to widen the objectives to include soil health, in order to highlight the importance of the overall biological condition of soil. I absolutely recognise and agree that the protection and effective management of soil health is crucial to sustainable and regenerative farming and is aligned with our wider biodiversity and climate adaptation work, and with our efforts to cut emissions from the agriculture sector. However, the bill enables us to provide support for that purpose, as soil health is specified in schedule 1. Therefore, I do not think that amendment 102 is necessary and I ask the committee not to support it.

If Colin Smyth’s amendment 103 were agreed to, it would add further text to section 1 to emphasise the importance of sustainable agricultural businesses to rural communities and would link that to the objective set out in paragraph (a) of section 1, on the adoption and use of sustainable and regenerative agricultural practices. However, the objectives of agricultural policy in section 1 already take into consideration the importance of sustainable agricultural businesses, not least through the inclusion of the objective in paragraph (b), on the production of high-quality food. For those reasons, I ask the committee not to support amendment 103.

Colin Smyth’s amendment 106 seeks to update the objective set out in paragraph (d) of section 1, on enabling rural communities to thrive, to emphasise two of the factors that will enable communities to thrive, including shorter supply chains and incomes received by farmers and crofters. The purpose of the objectives in the bill is to cover the range of factors that foster thriving rural communities. Although I recognise the key importance of shorter supply chains and of

“the adequacy and fairness of incomes received by farmers and croftersâ€â€”

to be clear, I absolutely support those aims—I do not agree that there is a need to emphasise them in section 1, given the wide range of factors involved in enabling rural communities to thrive. I therefore ask the committee not to support amendment 106.

As with amendment 92, on the creation of a purpose clause, I believe that, although well intentioned, amendment 107 is unnecessary. The bill already makes it clear that the powers that are sought are to be exercised to meet the objectives set out in part 1. The rural support plan, on which I will offer more context, will make clear how we will deliver on those objectives and how we will evidence progress towards them and the broader statutory duties. I hope that that offer will not only deliver on the positive intent behind Colin Smyth’s amendment but will go further by making it clear that ministers will report on and evidence all of this. Accordingly, I ask the committee not to support amendment 107.

On amendment 108, I sought to ensure that the bill’s objectives were drafted sufficiently broadly and at a high enough level to capture the vision for agriculture and ensure flexibility with regard to how that will be realised. However, I also recognise that, over time, what the Government and the Parliament wish for the objectives of agricultural policy might change, and Colin Smyth’s amendment 108 seeks to provide a regulatory power to make those changes. It offers that further flexibility, with a clear place for effective scrutiny, should it be clear that changing or refining objectives in the future is needed or desirable. Therefore, I welcome Colin Smyth’s amendment 108 and ask the committee to support it.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I disagree with Rachael Hamilton’s interpretation. I come back to the rationale that I have set out for our not supporting amendment 101. I do not think that it is helpful to separate out farmers in that context, because they are such an intrinsic part of our rural communities. I referred to farmers earlier, and we have specific measures relating to our farmers and crofters. I therefore think that we are talking slightly at cross-purposes in that respect.

On amendment 26, fair work principles are core to the Scottish Government’s approach to the economy and the labour market, as I have sought to make clear with my amendment 5. The positive intent behind amendment 26 is not in question, but there are a myriad reasons why a rural business might not have sufficient funds and resources, many of which are beyond the influence of Government. Although I understand what Rhoda Grant is seeking to do, I cannot support amendment 26, not least because it asks the Scottish Government to do something that is outwith its powers, however much we might wish that the situation were otherwise. Therefore, I ask the committee not to support amendment 26.

09:45  

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Absolutely. I appreciate that. We will go into more detail on that in discussing the next grouping, and I hope that what I set out will address many of the concerns that committee members and stakeholders have raised. We want to make sure that we look at that holistically and that whatever measures we introduce in that regard are introduced at the right place in the bill process, which I believe is at stage 3.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Convener, I ask you to allow me to finish the rest of my points, which set out the rationale for the approach that we have taken and how we want to work with members on the amendments that they have lodged in order to find a way forward.

I do not think that it is fair to look at the overall timescales. We introduced the bill on the back of the consultation that we undertook, and we are trying to provide a bit more certainty over the period. It should be recognised that we have introduced a framework bill. As I have said previously, it is important to remember that we are talking about the foundation of our approach to developing future policy. As I outlined in relation to what the first plan might look like, we are going through a transition, and we are trying to develop policy with our farmers and crofters. I commit to working with members around the table so that we can get the plan into a shape that, I hope, will allow everybody to come together to support it.

I return to my comments. It is key that we manage the transition through the first rural support plan and that we take farmers and crofters with us without creating unnecessary stress or dislocation. We need to ensure that, when we set up the requirements for the scrutiny, content and role of the plan, the plan is able to function now, with what we have, and will be able to function in the future with what we are co-developing.

I ask members not to move amendments 114 to 116, 38, 40 and 128. In return, I commit to taking every proposed amendment away for consideration and to engaging collaboratively with members of Parliament and stakeholders. I want to come back at stage 3 with a robust set of amendments that cover the rural support plan and our approach to monitoring and evaluation, thereby providing a wraparound approach to the issues that have been raised in this group.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Again, I ask Rachael Hamilton to allow me to get back to my comments so that I can set out what will be included.

We have had a number of conversations with stakeholders, and there has been the information that the committee has received. We are all pushing in the same direction in relation to what we want to achieve, so I hope that we can work constructively to achieve that.

Again, coming back to my comments and what I am committing to do and the issues that we will cover in relation to the rural support plan, it will cover our strategic priorities for providing support and the outcomes that we expect it to deliver. That will be important in setting the scene for a reporting period and giving everyone a clear understanding of what we are doing, why we are doing it and what we are seeking to achieve from the activity and support.

11:00  

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I expect the UK Government to at least engage in a conversation with us, so that we know what kind of allocation there will be and we can have a dialogue about what that budget might look like. That engagement was promised as part of the Bew review, but that conversation, despite our pursuing it, has never taken place.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I am sorry, but I do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Mairi Gougeon

The UK Government was able to do so previously, so I do not understand why it is not able to do so now and why it cannot engage in conversation with us about what future allocations might look like.

It is important to be clear that we get the confirmation of a budget only on an annual basis from the UK Government. We get an indicative allocation, which is confirmed on an annual basis, so that could fluctuate from year to year.

As I have outlined, we want to work in that space and be as helpful as possible within the limitations that we have, but we are within severe limitations when it comes to making commitments on multi-annual frameworks and funding going forward.