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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 26 December 2025
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Displaying 3630 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

To give a fuller picture, if I look at the A and E stats, NHS Forth Valley and NHS Lanarkshire perform very poorly, do they not? The statutory target is for 95 per cent of people to receive treatment within four hours, but Lanarkshire’s performance is 55 per cent and Forth Valley’s is 54 per cent.

I will ask you a question that was posed to the Auditor General when he was here. Is there any correlation between poor performance in A and E and better performance in some of those other indicators?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

We are going to touch on some of those performance measures as the morning progresses. Before I take us to another area, I place on record my membership of two trade unions that organise in the national health service.

I turn to staff sickness absence rates, which is recorded in this annual performance report on the NHS in Scotland as being at a 10-year high. What is your assessment of that issue, what are you doing to address it, and how are you going to turn it around?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Yes—the Public Audit Committee is indeed very interested in tackling digital exclusion.

I am conscious of the time, so I will bring in Stuart McMillan.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

We have covered an awful lot of ground this morning. If the budget is passed in a few weeks, the NHS budget will rise to ÂŁ21 billion, for which you, Caroline Lamb, will be the accountable officer. Because it constitutes 40 per cent of the entire Scottish budget, it is important that we, as the Public Audit Committee, scrutinise what you are doing and examine areas where things are not going quite as well as we would like.

There is also a great deal of public interest in health and social care, and I think the national health service remains probably the best-loved public institution that we have.

I thank Caroline Lamb, Alan Gray and John Burns very much for their time and co-operation this morning, in answering our questions.

11:43 Meeting continued in private until 12:15.  

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Our main item is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 23 report, “NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”, which covers the national health service’s financial position and performance measures.

I welcome our witnesses to the committee. We are joined by Caroline Lamb, who is the chief executive of NHS Scotland and director general of health and social care in the Scottish Government. Alongside her is Alan Gray, who is the director of health and social care finance in the Scottish Government. We are also joined by John Burns, who is the chief operating officer of NHS Scotland.

We have questions to put to the witnesses over the next hour and a bit, but before we get to those, I ask Caroline Lamb to provide us with a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Let us have a look at a couple of those points. In his speech on Monday, the First Minister reminded us that, last year, he referred to delayed discharge as

“the canary in the coal mine of our National Health Service.”

Paragraph 80 of Audit Scotland’s report says that delayed discharge rates are at the highest levels on record, so what is the state of the canary at the moment?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

On the subject of delayed discharge, you are the accountable officer for health and social care, the latter being the other key component in resolving the delayed discharge crisis. Do you not accept any responsibility for that?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

As the director general for health and social care, do you have data that shows you the reasons why people are off? Some jobs in the NHS are physical jobs—manual handling and so on—and, as a result, some people might be off through work-related injury. There is also the possibility of an increase in workplace-related stress. Do you have data that lets you know what is going on out there, so that it can be tackled and support can be put in where it is needed?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Sickness absence among NHS staff is at a 10-year high, and the First Minister announced on Monday that he wants there to be 150,000 extra appointments and procedures. How are you going to do that unless you tackle that level of staff absence?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

I now turn to Colin Beattie, who has some questions to put to you.