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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 June 2025
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Displaying 3231 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Yes, please do.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. Thanks for that clarification.

Can I just clarify a couple of things with you, too? I have seen the number of participating bodies in this year’s exercise as being either 110 or 127. Which is the correct number?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Graham Simpson has a quick question.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

To what extent is that a resource issue? We are dealing with an environment in which the financial pressures on the health service and health boards are intensifying, and the financial pressures on local councils and across local government are getting greater. Is the reason for the decline that they are unable to find the resources to follow up some of the work?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

It is useful that we have finished up on that point this morning, because I was going to ask a broader question that relates to it. A lot of the emphasis in the discussion that we have had this morning has been on individual citizens defrauding the state, but there are also instances of corporations potentially defrauding the state, whether in relation to personal protective equipment or something else.

When we previously took evidence on the national fraud initiative, in September 2022, we were told of instances where people had passed away in care homes but the council was not notified, so it continued to pay fees for those people. Is that still being monitored?

10:30  

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

I was going to say that we will draw proceedings to a close on that jolly note, but James Dornan has a final question to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed for providing us with evidence this morning. It has been a very useful session. We are legislators, and at some points we strayed into areas where legislation might need to be amended, so there are certain things that we will need to consider—as well as, perhaps, things that you will consider as a result of this morning’s session.

I thank you both for your time and contributions this morning. You have given us a few things to think about, and your evidence allows us to compare the exercise with the previous one, two years ago, and consider whether we want to suggest some areas that could be covered that are currently not, or some bodies that really ought to be part of the initiative but are currently not.

I now move the committee into private session.

10:35 Meeting continued in private until 11:25.  

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

I have a final question. When we discussed the adult concessionary bus travel arrangements earlier, Graham Simpson said that more than 1,000 people have used the bus passes of people who are deceased. For the record, it is fair to say that that was out of 99,600 people. In other words, 99 per cent of the population are entirely honest. Let us get some perspective on that.

However, I wonder about the extent to which you monitor the bus operators, because there are interesting considerations around whether the journeys that are charged for are the journeys that people have actually taken or whether there is a mismatch. For example, when you get off the bus, you are supposed to swipe your card to say, “This is the stop that I’m getting off at.” If you do not do that, what is the default position? Is it that the bus operator charges for a longer journey? I wonder whether that falls within the remit of the national fraud initiative or whether it is looked at somewhere else.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Our main item of business this morning is consideration of the report “National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”. I welcome our witnesses, who join us in the committee room. We have John Cornett, executive director of audit services, Audit Scotland; and Tim Bridle, audit manager, Audit Scotland. We have some questions to put to you about the report but, before we get to that, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks. That is a useful clarification. We are going to get into some of the specific match areas, but first I have a couple of questions on the broader impact of the initiative. In exhibit 3 in the report, you talk about the wider benefits of the national fraud initiative. You list that it can

“Act as a deterrent to potential fraudsters ... provide assurance that systems are operating well”

and

“identify where system improvements are required”.

Can you tell us more about that? What evidence do you have to support your claims in the report?