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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 June 2025
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Displaying 3231 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I will now bring in Graham Simpson, who wants to continue on some of the themes introduced by the deputy convener.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I will begin with a minor technical question. You came before the committee to give evidence in March this year, and you have changed the publication date for your latest report, so it seems that the cycle of your reporting on the financial state and operational performance of the national health service in Scotland has changed. Does that mean that you will revert to publishing your reports every 12 months around this time of year?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I invite Jamie Greene to come in.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

One area of capital spending that has previously come under scrutiny by the committee relates to the programme of investment in national treatment centres. When the chief executive of NHS Scotland was before us in June this year, we asked her about that. She sent us correspondence in which she confirmed that the plan for six national treatment centres had gone from originally costing £200 million to costing more than that. The running total at that time—summer this year—was £827 million, which represents a quadrupling of the cost. Are you in a position to give us an update on where we are with the national treatment centres investment programme?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I think that that is right. That was a significant part of last week’s budget announcement.

I want to move on to another area. I am looking at exhibit 7 in the report that we are considering today, which is a bar chart that shows the annual unitary charges that are payable under public-private partnership contracts. I was quite surprised that that chart stretches all the way to 2045-46. In other words, I thought that we had moved away from the model of private finance initiatives and public-private partnerships into a new age, in which we were no longer liable for the big unitary costs that that model involves, but it looks as though those costs are on-going.

You can keep me right on this, but I think that the normal lifetime of a PFI or PPP contract is about 25 or 30 years. If the expiry date is 2045, I presume that we are talking about capital projects that were commissioned under that form of financing fairly recently.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

We have just a few minutes left, but there is time for a couple of questions from the deputy convener to finish the session by looking at a couple of other aspects of operational performance.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I will draw the evidence session to a close at that point. In doing so, I thank the Auditor General very much for the evidence that he has given us. I also thank Carol Calder, Leigh Johnston and Bernie Milligan for their input. We have quite a lot to think about and we need to consider what our next steps might be. Thank you very much once again for your time and input.

I now move the committee into private session.

11:00 Meeting continued in private until 11:35.  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee. The first agenda item is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

The second agenda item is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 23 report “NHS in Scotland 2024”, which is a finance and performance report. I am pleased to welcome Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, to this morning’s meeting. He is joined by the following colleagues from Audit Scotland: Carol Calder, audit director; Leigh Johnston, senior manager; and Bernie Milligan, audit manager.

We have a wide range of questions on your wide-ranging report, Auditor General. Before we get to those questions, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Graham. I invite Colin Beattie to continue with some questions on the theme of financial performance.