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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

My reading of what has been included in the Auditor General’s findings is that he thinks that there should be a strategic shift and a cultural shift. There seems to be a culture of reaction rather than proactivity. Whether that is in the context of the fiscal sustainability part of the report or in the context of the public service reform part of the report, that seems to be a common thread.

I have a further point to make before I invite other committee members to come in. In what I thought was a very informative response to the key messages in the report, the main findings and the recommendations for action, you mentioned that you fully embraced the need for equality and human rights impact assessments of decisions that are made. How do you persuade me that it will be different this time? In exhibit 10, the report before us reflects the fact that, back in August 2019, the Scottish Government produced a set of key questions that decision makers must ask themselves when they are setting budgets:

“1. What outcome is the policy and associated budget decision aiming to achieve?

2. What do you know about existing inequalities of outcome in relation to the budget area?

3. How will your budget decisions impact different people and places?

4. How will your budget decisions contribute to the realisation of human rights?

5. Could the budget be used differently to better address existing inequalities of outcome and advance human rights?

6. How will the impact of budget decisions be evaluated?”

Those are all long-established principles that the Government has set itself, yet the report lays bare the pretty woeful attempt to incorporate equality and human rights impact assessments in any decisions about budgets that are being made.

You have told us that you agree with the recommendation on that aspect and that things will be different, but that seems to be a long way from the experience that we have had so far.

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I want to pick up on some of the issues that you discussed in answer to the previous series of questions.

One of the standard questions that we are asking everyone, and which uses the terminology of the landscape, is: to what extent do you see yourselves as having an advocacy function, and to what extent are you regulatory?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That was helpful.

I should note for the Official Report that the first time that Professor O’Hagan and I met was when she was working for the Equal Opportunities Commission and I was working for the GMB trade union. In that respect, I was struck by what your written submission says in relation to your search for new powers, as some of them—the ability to take forward litigation, support legal proceedings and so on—look like the powers that the Equal Opportunities Commission used to have. It is worth noting for the Official Report that your long list of asks includes your powers being strengthened so that they cover your being able to

“Provide legal advice ... Raise legal proceedings ... Conduct inquiries in less limited circumstances ... Require and compel information ... Make unaccompanied and unannounced visits to any human rights duty bearer”

and

“Hold public hearings and require duty bearers to be present”.

You also ask for a bigger commission, but that is perhaps a separate point.

Could you run us through the difference that those additional powers would make to the work that you do at the moment?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

Quite recently, we had a debate in the Parliament about your report on the Highlands and Islands. There is a real sense that people’s human rights are not being upheld in a whole range of areas, including access to public services, health services and culture. However, I cannot just go to the Inverness sheriff court and get a remedy for that.

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

If you had powers in that area, what more would you be able to do?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

I have another quick, and much more straightforward and practical, question about shared services. One of the things that we are looking at is the extent to which shared services support exists and how it can be enhanced. What are the barriers to greater shared services?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

I will go back to the regulator and advocacy distinction. Do you see yourself as having a regulatory role?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That was very clear and helpful.

There are other labels that get bandied about, such as the extent to which you are “proactive” or “reactive”; indeed, we have used those terms ourselves earlier, and you have answered Lorna Slater’s question on that point. This might seem invidious, but could you put percentages on the balance of your workload between proactive and reactive activities?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

That was a very helpful answer. Thank you.

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 27 February 2025

Richard Leonard

Imagine it, Mr Hobbs. Would you like them?