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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 June 2025
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Displaying 3231 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Sorry, Mr Lowe—you froze, so we did not get the last 60 seconds of your answer.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

I remind you that if you want to augment the oral evidence that you have given us in writing, please feel free to do that. That may be useful and you alluded to that at the start of that round of questions. It would be helpful for the committee if you could give us the updated figure on the balance when you have it.

I turn to a series of questions on the management of the census programme. I invite Willie Coffey and then Sharon Dowey to come in.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Welcome back. Item 3 on our agenda is consideration of “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”. I am pleased to welcome three people from Audit Scotland to give evidence on the report: Stephen Boyle, who is the Auditor General; Michael Oliphant, who is an audit director; and Helen Russell, who is a senior audit manager of audit services.

We have a series of questions, and we will try to get through as much of the report as we can. However, it makes sense to us that we give the report due consideration, and it may be that we come back again in the coming weeks to have a further evidence session on this important report.

I begin by asking the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

One aspect that is highlighted in the report, especially in and around Covid-related payments, is the question of fraud and risks of fraud. Willie Coffey has a number of questions on that subject.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Before we finish, Auditor General, I highlight that the committee’s attention was attracted by your judgment that it was necessary to spotlight the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service in your report on the Scottish Government’s consolidated accounts. You identify special payments to the tune of £40.2 million that the service had to make in the financial year 2020-21, £40 million of which were payments to individuals following legal action against the Lord Advocate

“in connection with the acquisition and administration of Rangers Football Club”.

By my calculation, 99.5 per cent of those special payments went to those individuals. From an audit perspective, we are interested in finding out whether that gives you fundamental concerns about the service’s financial position.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Are you in a position to give us an estimate of the outstanding exposure to the cases being litigated, given what you have said about one of the cases being settled, two being closed and others still on-going? Do you have a sense of the value of those cases?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed.

I bring this part of our proceedings to a close by thanking Helen Russell, Michael Oliphant and the Auditor General for their evidence this morning. As I mentioned at the start of the session, the audit of the Scottish Government’s consolidated accounts is an important piece of work, and there are many aspects that we have not had a chance to talk about and put questions on. I hope that, with your co-operation, Auditor General, we will be able to do so in the very near future, because the report contains some very important issues of public concern.

With that, I close the public part of the meeting and move into private.

11:17 Meeting continued in private until 11:42.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

The second item on our agenda is an evidence session with representatives of the National Records of Scotland. The session follows a section 22 report that the committee considered at its meeting on 9 December 2021 with the Auditor General for Scotland and a team from Audit Scotland.

I am pleased to say that we are joined by Paul Lowe, who is the registrar general for Scotland and keeper of the records of Scotland. Also from the National Records of Scotland are Linda Sinclair, who is the director of corporate services and accountable officer; Anne Slater, who is the director of operations and customer services; and Peter Whitehouse, who is the director of statistical services.

I mentioned that Linda Sinclair is the accountable officer, but I invite Paul Lowe to give us some opening remarks before the committee asks questions.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the second meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee.

The first item on our agenda is to decide whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. I assume that all members agree to do so, unless any member indicates otherwise. Does any member object to taking agenda items 4 and 5 in private?

I see no objections, so that is agreed.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 20 January 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, Paul. If you want members of your team to field any of the questions, please let us know who the appropriate person is. If members of your team want to come in, they should type R in the chat function to make sure that I call them.

I will give a bit of context to this morning’s session. A section 22 report by Audit Scotland is quite a serious matter; it happens when alarm bells have been or still are ringing. This morning, we want to probe a little into the journey that you have been on and to consider how things look over the next few weeks because, as you said, the census has still to be delivered.

I will start by reflecting on the second paragraph of the Audit Scotland report, which contains this note from the Auditor General:

“I have prepared this report to draw the Scottish Parliament’s attention to the challenges facing NRS in the delivery of the census programme. This includes the significant impact the decision to delay the census until March 2022 has had on NRS’s costs. There are also ongoing risks to delivery of the programme, including resourcing and financial pressures, which NRS will need to continue to manage so that the census can be delivered successfully in line with the revised budget and timetable.”

Committee members will return to those themes over the next hour.

I want to reflect on the evidence session that we had with the Auditor General on 9 December 2021. You might have seen that one of the issues that were brought to our attention was that an options appraisal report led you, through evidence, I presume, to the decision—or the recommendation to ministers for their decision—to postpone the census for a year. That was a very big decision to make. We asked the Audit Scotland representatives whether they had had sight of the options appraisal report. They might have had sight of it, but they were not in a position to offer it to us. Would it be possible for the committee to see the full options appraisal report?