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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 June 2025
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Displaying 3231 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay, but other people in ministerial positions were copied into the emails. They were part of the email conversation. What do you say to that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

But what do you say, Mr Gillies?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I think that we understand that; we are trying to get to the bottom of who was involved in the decision.

I will move things along and ask Colin Beattie to put some questions to the witnesses.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I know that Mr Brannen is a roads and highways man—civil engineering and all that. Did he have something against ferries? If big road contracts were put through that process of scrutiny, why would a ferries contract to the value of £97 million of public money—we now know that it is likely to be of the value of £0.25 billion—not have been put through that process?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Sorry, what is the value of the Islay ferries?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That is fine.

The other tidying-up point that I have is about the emails that Fran Pacitti found on 11 May. At 15:45 on 9 October, Gordon Wales, the director of financial management, sent an email to your predecessor Transport Scotland official John Nicholls and copied in Ainslie McLaughlin. In that email, he referred to “banana skins”. What were the banana skins?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We understand that. We might return to the point when we hear from other witnesses.

I draw this morning’s session to a close. I thank Mo Rooney, Colin Cook, Dermot Rhatigan, Hugh Gillies, Fran Pacitti and Chris Wilcock for joining us. We appreciate the time that you have given us. We have mentioned a couple of times the committee’s disappointment that the interim director general for net zero was not able to be with us. We might have a further session to explore the issue a bit more, or we might turn to written evidence, but that is for the committee to consider. For the time being, however, I thank you for your input this morning.

10:26 Meeting continued in private until 11:26.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

The principal item on our agenda is continued consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”, which is a continuation of the evidence session that we held on 26 May.

I welcome back our witnesses. Colin Cook is the director of economic development in the Scottish Government, and Dermot Rhatigan is the deputy director for manufacturing and industries. Mo Rooney joins us in the committee room today. She is the deputy director of the Scottish Government’s strategic commercial interventions division. From Transport Scotland, we have Hugh Gillies, interim chief executive; Fran Pacitti, director of aviation, maritime freight and canals; and Chris Wilcock, head of the ferries unit.

Before moving to questions, I want to place on the record the committee’s disappointment that we are not joined today by the portfolio accountable officer for transport—the director general for net zero. Section 9 of the Scottish public finance manual is pretty clear about the expectations that are placed on designated accountable officers to give evidence to the committee. We retain the option of calling back the interim DG for net zero at some point in the future.

I remind members and witnesses that, as always, we are up against the clock, so I ask that we try to keep questions and answers as short and concise as possible.

I invite Colin Cook to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That is 11 May. You found that document on the morning of 11 May.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. I am sure that people will draw their own conclusions from that.

I will ask about the bit of paper. The reason I asked you what you were asked to look for, Fran Pacitti, is that there is simply a dispute about what the bit of paper constitutes. The Audit Scotland report clearly said in its key messages:

“There is insufficient documentary evidence to explain why Scottish ministers accepted the risks and were content to approve the contract award in October 2015.”

In paragraph 28 of the report, Audit Scotland says:

“We consider that there should have been a proper record of this important decision.”

Do you think that that is what you found?