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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 June 2025
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Displaying 3264 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

They might be higher in reality, but I am not sure that they are higher in real terms. My point is that people’s incomes going up—albeit that they lag behind the cost of living and the consumer prices index—presumably leads to an expansion of the revenue that comes in to HMRC. In turn, that will lead to an increase in the resources that are available to the Scottish Government.

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes. We will come to discuss that in more detail.

Gareth Davies, you mentioned methodology a couple of times. Again, that is something that exercises the committee’s interest, and other committee members will have more detailed questions in that area. Scottish income tax is now well established, but we have heard some concerns that the methodology does not give us the level of data that we think is necessary to make informed policy decisions.

I will cite an example. In the report, you identify some of the methodological flaws, if you like, or recognised areas in which there is not the level of data that we might like. The second point about the methodology in your report states that

“The methodology combines the calculation of PAYE and Self Assessment liabilities for the UK such that the amount apportioned to Scotland does not reflect the differing proportions of each type of taxpayer between Scotland and the rest of the UK.”

Do we know, for example, what the balance is, in England and Northern Ireland versus Scotland, between people who are on the pay-as-you-earn system and those who are on the self-assessment system? Are there more people on PAYE in Scotland than there are in England and Northern Ireland, or vice versa?

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Therefore, that could be built into the data that is available, but currently it is not. Even on some kind of sampling basis, it would presumably be possible to gauge the relative balance between PAYE and self-assessment liabilities in both jurisdictions.

09:15  

Another point strikes us in relation to the methodology, which the Auditor General for Scotland reflected on in last year’s report. Paragraph 16 of this year’s report, which notes the NAO’s report, states that the

“methodology has remained broadly the same since the prior year.”

This time last year, we were having conversations with Scottish Government officials, as well as with HMRC, about the methodology, the service level agreement and the quality of data that was being procured, because there is obviously a financial cost to it.

Last year, Gareth Davies commented:

“Clearly, if you had a more highly specified agreement that got into some of the areas that we have been talking about today”—

why we cannot get more qualitative data and fewer estimates—

“it is likely that HMRC would require more costs to be covered. However, on the basis of the agreement that is currently set out, we think that the cost is fairly stated.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 3 February 2022; c 25.]

In other words, we were getting into the terrain of suggesting that, if the Scottish Government was prepared to pay a little bit more money to HMRC, it could perhaps get some better-quality data.

In her evidence last year, Alyson Stafford from the Scottish Government said that

“the committee’s consideration is extremely timely for us to take your observations and comments into account”

and that the Government was

“looking at data breadth and depth.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 12 May 2022; c 41.]

However, nothing appears to have changed. Is that a fair estimate of what is going on here? Nothing.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome, everybody, to the fifth meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. Under the first item on the committee’s agenda, do members agree to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I will kick off. You make the point that HMRC estimates that Scottish income tax revenue in 2021-22 will be £13.2 billion, which would be an increase of about 11.3 per cent on the previous year—a year when the economy was in lockdown—but it is also estimated that the increase in the UK will be 13.2 per cent, which is significantly more than in Scotland. Why is there an expected difference between UK performance and Scottish performance?

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes.

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

That clarification is helpful—thank you for that.

Obviously, the estimates are in the domain of the decision-making process, so they are quite important to us. That is why we have taken the view that having better data would give us a clearer sense of where policy should go and what will have the most impact in relation to raising revenue or redistributing the burden of taxation.

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

The Auditor General wants to come in on that point.

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. There is a whole other area that we want to explore, which includes the tax gap and other data issues. Colin Beattie will lead on that.

Public Audit Committee

“Administration of Scottish income tax 2021/22”

Meeting date: 9 February 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Obviously, the committee will consider what its next steps are on that, but there would be interest in understanding whether private debt collection agencies are now being deployed.