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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 June 2025
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Displaying 3264 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

We very much appreciate that. We also appreciate your response to Willie Coffey’s questions about sharing the legal advice. That has been a bit of a bugbear of ours, so we would really appreciate greater transparency on it.

Thank you very much for your evidence.

I suspend the meeting to allow for a change of witnesses.

10:13 Meeting suspended.  

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Public Audit Committee

Auditor General for Scotland (Work Programme)

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Under agenda item 3, we will take evidence from the Auditor General and his team on their work programme for the next period of time.

I welcome Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General for Scotland, who is joined by Gemma Diamond, director at Audit Scotland, and Mark Taylor, audit director at Audit Scotland.

As usual, we have a series of questions that we would like to put to you, Auditor General. To begin with, also as usual, I ask you to make a short opening statement to get us under way.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

If you could write to us, not now, but subsequent to today’s session, with the comparable figure for the current date, that would be a useful measure for us to understand whether things are back to a level that most people would recognise.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

I think that my next point also came up at the SPPA Committee meeting. You have touched on this, but I can safely say on behalf of the Public Audit Committee that we would be very supportive of welfare support being in place for respondents and, in particular, people who have lodged complaints. It seems a little bit unbalanced to have an apparatus through which complaints can be processed without having a wraparound support mechanism for people. If you and the Standards Commission are making those representations, we would be supportive of that.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much for your evidence, which has been very useful. You are right, Mr Bruce: we hope that we do not see you next year either, because that would indicate how much progress had been made. It has been a valuable session for us. Thank you very much for coming in and giving us the answers to some of our questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Yes. I do not recommend that, Mr Bruce.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

One of the alarm bell figures that we have seen over the past couple of years is the statistic about the numbers of complaints that were or were not progressed. There is a contrast between two years. We were told that, in 2016-17, 43 per cent of complaints against councillors and members of public boards were not pursued—i.e. 57 per cent were pursued—but, by the time that we get to 2020-21, 84 per cent of such complaints were not pursued. That big contrast was one of the things that sent out a clear signal that people had lost confidence in the system and that something was going wrong. You might want to reflect on that, but could you tell us the current figures for complaints against councillors and public board members? We will take that as the test area, to find out what the figures are now.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

I think that that is a provocative question that you have put, Mr Bruce. We do not want you to go through all the recommendations now. I will say what we are interested in as the Public Audit Committee. If you sat here and said, “We’ve arrived and everything’s been done”, we would probably question whether that was probable or not, but we want to get a sense of how many of your 26 recommendations—or the 22 as accounted for by the audit—have been implemented. The auditors said that they thought that it was about half and half. Half had been fully implemented, to the credit of you and the people who work in the organisation, and half were—again, quite creditably—work in progress.

We recognise that some of these things are moving targets and that there are changes—it is a dynamic organisation. You coined a memorable phrase when you said that it is akin to rebuilding a plane in flight, which is a rather good way of putting it. You do not need to go through each recommendation individually, but can you say whether about half of the recommendations are still work in progress or whether more have been implemented? Are more of the recommendations ones that can readily be implemented so that you can say, “We’ve done that now and we can move on to something else”?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

Okay—that is fine. I am conscious that we are coming towards the end of our session, but I know that the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, has a series of questions that she wants to put to you, so we will finish with her.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 30 March 2023

Richard Leonard

May I seek verification on one point? All the reports that I have seen say that there is an eight-month wait for an initial assessment of a complaint. Did you tell us that that has now been cut to 13 weeks, which is just over three months?