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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 29 June 2025
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Displaying 3264 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I will bring in Craig Hoy in a second. We have spoken about the number of GPs, and about recruitment and retention and so on. Last year, the committee was quite exercised by the broader picture of GP data, which we took up with you in correspondence. I can characterise it as follows: on the one hand, we have GPs saying, “We’re seeing more patients than ever”, and, on the other hand, our postbags are full of correspondence from people saying, “I can’t get an appointment with a GP.” We were quite keen to have transparency on that. We certainly corresponded about an oversight group that you had put together that was, I think, an attempt to get into the granular detail. Can you update us on that work?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

We have been told a few times that the report is from a moment in time, but it came out in February, and we are now in May, so it was not that long ago. Before I bring in Sharon Dowey, can I just ask whether you are planning to revisit the NHS recovery plan, which is one of the headline recommendations in the Auditor General’s report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I presume, however, that you agree with the recommendation in the report that the Scottish Government and NHS boards need to work “more collaboratively” in the future.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I suppose that it also depends, does it not, on the model that is chosen? At the moment, it is envisaged that the national care service will, largely, be a commissioning model, whereas, at one time, we were told that it would be the modern-day equivalent of the foundation of the national health service, which is a very different model from the one that has been put forward in the bill.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I am sure that the Auditor General was not suggesting “a dry annual report”, but was, rather, suggesting something that would be informative and would help people to understand the progress that has been made. We have highlighted some of the areas where we have concerns, but as you said at the start, some extremely critical work is going on—thanks, not least, to the workforce. The committee adds our thanks to yours to the staff who do such incredible work and provide services day in, day out and night in, night out.

On that note, I close this morning’s session. Caroline Lamb, Richard McCallum and John Burns, thank you for your input, which has been very useful. You said that you might get back to us with a bit more detail on some areas; that would be most welcome.

10:34 Meeting continued in private until 10:59.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

I have a quick follow-up question that is based on the Audit Scotland report. You said that you agree with its findings and recommendations. One of the headline findings of the report is:

“The proposed National Care Service will place a huge strain on the health and social care budget”.

Do you accept that conclusion?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

As a committee, we are used to delays. Sometimes, they are not as inevitable as you perhaps suggest. What does the delay do to the cost of those projects? Will they come in on budget, or will they be over budget because of that delay?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

The principal item on our agenda is an evidence session on the Audit Scotland section 23 report, “NHS in Scotland 2022”. In the interests of transparency, I refer members to my entry in the members’ register of interests, which includes membership of two trade unions that organise in the national health service.

I am especially pleased to welcome our three witnesses: Caroline Lamb, chief executive of NHS Scotland and the director-general of health and social care; Richard McCallum, director of health finance and governance in the Scottish Government; and John Burns, chief operating officer in NHS Scotland. You are all very welcome. We have quite a number of questions that we would like to put to you. Before we get to those, I ask Caroline Lamb to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everybody to the 13th meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. We have received apologies from Colin Beattie and Willie Coffey, but I am delighted to welcome Bill Kidd, who is substituting on the committee today.

The first item on the agenda is for members to consider whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Are we agreed to do so?

Members indicated agreement.