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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 3287 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

On a related point, the Auditor General recently published a briefing on infrastructure and the challenges in delivering projected budgets. To what extent might those pressures have an impact on the delivery of infrastructure in the early learning and childcare sector?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

There is a striking implementation gap here, isn’t there? I am thinking in particular about provision for eligible two-year-olds. That is targeted according to people’s benefit receipts and the care experience of either parent or child. They are an extremely important group that is very much a priority for the Scottish Government through the Promise and other work that has been carried out, but these two-year-olds are only two once, aren’t they? If this programme has been in place since August 2021 and we are now at October 2023 and you did not know who these children were, that means that an awful lot of children have missed out on an opportunity for early learning that was stated as a matter of public priority and imperative public policy. How do you answer that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

Exhibit 4 in the Audit Scotland report gives examples of data gaps—we will say a little bit more about those again, I am sure. One of the data gaps listed is the extent to which children with additional support needs are not accessing funded early learning and childcare and the extent of any unmet needs. Here is another targeted group—and an especially important group—where there is a significant gap in the data available.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

Again, Mr Rennick, I think that our view is that this ought to be a priority group. If anybody is to miss out on the childcare and early learning offer, it should not be this group.

You have talked quite a lot about the surveys. We get the importance of surveys in helping inform policy, but what really ought to lead policy is the raw data, is it not? It is all about the evidence of where the demand is, whether it is being met, where the target groups are and whether they are accessing the promise that has been given to them and which they should be accessing. The committee’s view is likely to be that customer surveys and those kinds of sampling exercises are useful, but it is the hard data that we are interested in. Why are you not capturing that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

But it was a stated Scottish Government policy, wasn’t it? I do not know whether that is the point that Mr Simpson is going to make. I understand what you are saying about the availability of data sharing and so on, but if the Scottish Government announces a policy and Parliament legislates for it but we are unable to deliver, it becomes a rather hollow promise, doesn’t it? You do not need to answer that question. I will bring in Graham Simpson.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed. That has been a useful session for us. I thank the director general, Neil Rennick, for coming along and leading on this evidence and Eleanor Passmore for your input. Matthew Sweeney and Joanna Anderson from COSLA, thank you very much, indeed, for answering our questions and taking part in this morning’s discussion.

10:33 Meeting continued in private until 11:06.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

I will go swiftly to the deputy convener, Sharon Dowey, who has some questions that follow up on that theme.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I think that you said that, as the accountable officer, you accept all the recommendations in the report that was produced by Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission. Is that correct, Mr Rennick?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much.

I turn to something that we took evidence on back in June, when the Auditor General’s report was published. At that point, there was real interest in the capital spend to deliver these quite ambitious targets. At that time, the evidence that we were given was that the Scottish Futures Trust was going to gather information on capital spend and try to come up with some estimates of current spend and what future spend might be. Mr Rennick, can you update us on where we have got to with that work by the Scottish Futures Trust?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Early Learning and Childcare: Progress on delivery of the 1,140 hours expansion”

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. We will ask questions about the financing of the operational model at some point.

Colin Beattie has some questions.