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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

I wonder whether you can clear something else up for me, which was in a statement that we received in evidence that we took when we had GEOAmey before us. When I asked him about exposure to human rights litigation, David Jones said:

“The human rights obligation sits with the state actor, not the private company.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 28 March 2024; c 37.]

Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Those were my words, not Mr Farrell’s, on this occasion. He might use them as well, but I used them this time.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

Following neatly on from that, the deputy convener has some questions to put to you. Jamie, over to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Can I take that as a yes?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

I will bring in Teresa Medhurst in a minute. Are you taking legal advice on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

One of the other dimensions is in evidence that we took on 14 March from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons in Scotland, when we were told—this language was used—that there were “human rights breaches”, and particular reference was made to prisoners not receiving access to medical treatment and hospital appointments, which is a denial of their human rights. Have you taken legal advice on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

As the Public Audit Committee we have taken evidence from the Auditor General, a member of staff from Audit Scotland and staff from HMIPS, who have all talked about human rights breaches and the risk that is posed.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

So, Scottish ministers could face prosecution, not GEOAmey or the chief executive of the SPS?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

If you need to, you can reply to any of these questions in writing afterwards We would rather have accurate information than speculative information.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Richard Leonard

Not you, is what I think he means. You do not have to respond.

Going back to the procurement process, I am interested in what kind of support your sponsor division gives you. The Scottish Government has a whole procurement team. It has a lot of experience in placing contracts and doing due diligence around contracts, yet Wendy Sinclair-Gieben told us that the contract has not worked since its inception. What support are you getting from the sponsor division?