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We have conversations about data and money, but we have had no explanation for that figure of £1.5 billion.

We have discussions with COSLA on a constant basis, Mr Lumsden.

We have discussions with COSLA on a constant basis, Mr Lumsden.

I am happy for folk to write to us about particular matters and we respond to them. That will be in the public domain. I want all channels to be open, but I also want to be open and transparent about all that as we move forward. We will put into the public domain as much as we possibly can. In reality, as we move forward, we will be involving so many folk in all of this that things will be public anyway. We will put out there as soon as we possibly can the co-designs and other things, including the formulation of the business cases and all the other work that we do.

When I visited a Camphill community in Edinburgh the other week, a woman said to me, “You won’t like this, because I’m going to be very challenging.” That is what I want; we need to be challenged if we are to get this right. However, we need to be challenged not only by some of the folk who regularly come before the committee; we also need to give the public the opportunity to challenge us and to shape services as we move forward. That has not happened to the degree that it should have happened in the past.

That does not surprise me, convener.

Absolutely.

No. I am, as always, very happy to continue to engage with the committee, convener. You can be assured that, as our work continues, we will update you as and when.

Thank you, convener, and good morning to the committee. Thank you for having me along to give evidence and take questions on the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill and its financial memorandum.

The National Care Service (Scotland) Bill is an enabling bill that sets out a number of provisions. The national care service, as proposed in the bill, will bring together social work, social care and community health to strengthen health and social care integration for adult services. By the end of this parliamentary session, accountability for adult social work and care support will transfer from local government to the Scottish ministers. The Government is establishing a programme of evidence gathering and research to inform future decisions on children’s services and justice social work and on whether it would be appropriate for them to become part of the national care service, too.

The aim of the NCS is to improve the already high quality and consistency of care across Scotland and to reduce variation to ensure that everyone, no matter where they live in Scotland, is provided with the best possible care. The bill sets out that the functions at a national level will focus on consistency through national oversight, while services will continue to be designed and delivered locally. That is the right approach to support delivery with and for our communities and the people whom they serve. The purpose of the NCS is not to nationalise services.

The principles of any new system will be person centred, with human rights at the very heart of all that we do. That means that the NCS will be delivered in a way that respects, protects and fulfils the human rights of people who access care support and their carers.

The bill sets out a framework for change, but the key details will be developed as part of a co-design approach. Co-design is all about engaging and working with people—people with lived experience of and people who deliver community health and care support. Those are the people who understand the challenges best and are therefore best placed to help drive forward the improvements that we all want. It represents a new approach to drafting the detail of the bill, with the intention of working more collaboratively to reduce the gap between the legal and the policy intent and its delivery, following the difficulties faced in realising the changes identified in previous service reviews.

Integrated health and social care has long been the joint ambition of local and national Government, but the people who access and deliver care have told us that it is not delivering the quality of services that is needed consistently. Combining national oversight with local expertise will ensure that the right balance can be struck to ensure consistent and fair quality of service provision across Scotland, allow for better sharing of good practice and innovation and remove unwarranted duplication of functions in order to make the best use of public funds.

The financial memorandum sets out the estimated costs for establishing and running the national care service and the proposed local care boards. It does not cover any proposed changes to wider policy, such as those set out in the independent review. It includes significant assumptions about required investments in pay and terms and conditions for front-line local government care staff if they transfer to the NCS.

Discussions are on-going with regard to the potential transfer of staff or assets from local authorities. That is a key area for co-design and one that, given its importance, will not be rushed. Work is on-going, and all financial considerations are under constant review as new information becomes available. I want to make it clear that we are not waiting for the NCS to start improving social care; we are already taking steps to improve the outcomes for people who access care and support, and our priority will be to continue to maximise front-line spending.

The Scottish Government’s commitment to fair work and support for fair pay and conditions are long-standing policies that will be embedded in the values of the new national care service. By rewarding and valuing the workforce to deliver the best possible service for the people of Scotland, we will make the sector fit for the future and more attractive to people who come into the profession.

They might argue that, but we have been at this for a very long time. It is not just a matter of the consultation itself; there was all the work that went into the independent review and all that Mr Feeley has done in that regard. Again, voices were listened to there. In fact, from what I have heard from the voices of lived experience, people think that all of this has been too slow. If you were to ask them whether the consultation was too short, the answer from most would, I think, be a resounding no.

A lot of people, organisations and stakeholders engaged with the consultation. I have spoken with and, most important, listened to thousands of people since I came into post. Officials have been engaging with people across the board. If the committee was to bring forward some folk from the likes of the social covenant steering group, they would say that things have taken too long, that the consultation was the right thing to do at the right time and that we need to move forward.

I make the point to the committee that, just because the consultation is over, that does not mean that engagement discontinues. It will continue throughout the process. A huge amount of my time and that of officials is spent talking to stakeholders and hearing the voices of those with lived experience so that we get this right. We want such folk to be fully engaged in the co-design process as we move forward.

We need national high-quality standards. Indeed, that has come across very clearly from those who are supported by carers as well as from front-line staff who believe that national high-quality standards are the way forward.

The other aspect is accountability. I have now been in post for 18 months, and at the beginning, I was surprised by how many of the folks who are supported by our care system mentioned accountability. People do not feel that there is the accountability that there should be at the local level, and they feel that ministers should be accountable for more than just the policy direction that we are currently accountable for.

People also feel that national high-quality standards are absolutely necessary. That has come across loud and clear in almost every conversation that I have had with folks with lived experience of the care system. It has come across loud and clear from the social covenant steering group, and it has come across loud and clear from those who work on the front line.

I will give you an example, without naming anyone. I have heard time and again that, where there have been failings, folk get pushed from pillar to post. They are told, “That’s not our responsibility—it’s the responsibility of the health and social care partnership,” “No, that’s not our responsibility—it’s the council’s responsibility,” or, “No, that’s the responsibility of the national health service.” That leads to real difficulties for people, and we need to change that. That is why we need the national care service. We need to ensure that that accountability exists, so that people know what they can expect from the care system.