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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 August 2025
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Displaying 1138 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

No, no—what is your understanding of the reason for that?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

My questions are on the same subject. I recognise all the figures about pay rates and the real living wage, but the differential is causing the challenge. We have all heard anecdotal evidence from private and voluntary sector nurseries that they are losing staff to council nurseries and to other sectors, because staff can get better jobs with better pay elsewhere. That is reducing capacity and having an impact on the flexibility and choice that were supposed to be available through the provision of 1,140 hours.

The minister is right about the fact that private nurseries have other sources of income, but those sources are shrinking, because the state contribution to their work is increasing. The impact that the cross-subsidy has is reducing.

I am alarmed at the thought that the private sector’s capacity will reduce massively because we have two tiers built into the pay system—that has been the design from the beginning. The situation cannot be turned around overnight, because the sum of money is significant, but is there a plan to bring pay rates in the PVI sector into line with those in council nurseries, so that people are not paid different wages for doing exactly the same job?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

There is a difference, though, between sustainable rates and fair rates. Surely, it is just not fair that people get paid much less for doing the exactly the same job. You cannot accept that that is a satisfactory position.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

I have a final question. Now that we have sorted it out with the UK Government, when will 100 per cent of eligible two-year-olds access their provision?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

We will accept that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

Yes. There is a general concern about the pace of reform, because it feels very slow. I know that you could come up with an explanation as to why that is so, but, when we have a pretty drastic situation—as reported by the OECD and with heavy criticism from the Stobart review—there is an expectation that we should move a bit faster. What will we get in May? How quickly will the report’s recommendations be implemented?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

I started by talking about marginal improvement in the performance; Kaukab Stewart said that it could be better, which is maybe a fairer way of presenting it. We have a slow process of reform, and we are uncertain about what will happen after the Hayward review. Children who started school when Nicola Sturgeon made that promise in 2016 will have left by the time that we see any potential real benefit. That cannot be satisfactory. Does that really give hope to young people that the Government is on their side?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

I have one final question.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

It is not really a question—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Willie Rennie

But the success is not a result of the reforms. The reforms were established because of a crisis, and we have not really seen them happen, so you cannot really claim credit for those areas of improvement. I recognise that there are improvements, but we set up those reforms in response to a critical report and nothing much has happened. That is not good enough, is it?