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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 1057 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

I have a quick question to follow up on that. Jon Vincent, you have given evidence about the disparity in funding between colleges and universities. If all the apprenticeship funding is put into the new funding model, does that not lead us to believe that exactly the same thing will happen—that the boundaries between the different budget headings will not change and all that will happen is the lift and shift that Paul Grice was talking about? Is that not an indication that this is perhaps a fruitless exercise?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

Let me try to summarise. Andrew Ritchie, you are sceptical. Sir Paul and Jon Vincent, you are passionate about reform, but you are a little bit underwhelmed by the structural change. Is that a fair representation?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

That is fine. To be clear, I am just presenting evidence. I am not criticising SDS; I am just presenting the reports that are out there. There are two substantial reports and there has been lots of other commentary, so the evidence is not insignificant.

Thank you very much for your answers.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

What are your reflections, Phiona? Do you recognise that lack of leadership?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

You will be familiar with the Withers report and perhaps also with the Audit Scotland report from a few years ago, which was quite critical of the skills landscape and the lack of leadership within it. The Withers report was also quite critical, saying that there were

“competing narratives and approaches and duplication ... lack of clarity ... lack of leadership and effective governance”,

and that the landscape reflects the

“harmful, false division that fuels its persistence”,

which is a reference to the persistence of divisions between the various parts of the system.

Do you recognise any of that? In your work, do you see any of those elements?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

Why do you think that there needs to be a change?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

Bluntly, do you think that the SFC can cope with the proposed changes, given everything else that is going on?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

I think that you might agree with me.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

There is a lot going on in HE and FE, and now in the apprenticeship world. We have talked about cross-party talks on HE funding and there has been a great focus on college funding. We have had the issues at the University of Dundee, and UHI Perth is now in a terrible condition. That is just in my part of the world, but there are stories from other parts about financial difficulties, so there is a lot going on. Is now the time to make a change of this magnitude? Can the funding council cope? Does it have the headspace to do this?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 14 May 2025

Willie Rennie

Precisely.