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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 August 2025
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Displaying 1138 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

The Presiding Officer has got it wrong before, too. That is the whole point. The system got it wrong. How do you know that you have got it right this time?

09:30  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

Section 8(5)(b) gives you the power to close colleges and universities, despite the fact that they never closed during the pandemic, because it is dangerous to close them. Animals would be at risk and laboratories would probably blow up, so those institutions are never closed. Nevertheless, you have taken on the possibility that you would have the power to close them, and that would be incredibly dangerous. Does that not prove the point that the micromanagement approach to these issues, with Government dictating what the institutions are doing, proves the point that we need to have a framework, rather than a prescriptive, approach?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

Colleges and universities are not against preparations and measures. I think that there has been a misunderstanding about that. They are just arguing about how it is done. Last week, they said that they favoured a framework approach rather than the prescriptive approach in the bill. I have a couple of questions that I think make that point.

Dundee and Angus College runs animal care and zoology courses. Does the Government understand how to run those courses? Of course it does not. City of Glasgow College had 245 students at sea during the pandemic. Does the Government understand how to run nautical courses? Of course it does not. Nonetheless, the powers that you are proposing to take on are quite wide ranging.

10:30  

Section 8(5)(a) enables ministers to “confer additional functions”. Section 8(5)(i) enables ministers to require universities and colleges to take

“actions in general terms, or ... particular actions, that ... Ministers consider appropriate”.

Those powers are very wide ranging. Why are you leaving open the possibility that you would take over functions to run those institutions directly when, to be frank, you do not have a clue how to run them?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

Are there any barriers in principle to the data sharing, or is it just a matter of working through the technicalities? Why is it taking so long?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

That is fine.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

I am sorry, but the commissioner’s office is not making such an argument. It is arguing that we should use this time to work up emergency powers at a reasonable pace for implementation in an emergency rather than put them in place now, when there is no emergency. The commissioner’s office argues that we should take our time now to get this right because, as we will discuss later, there are serious questions about the prescriptive model that you are adopting.

Why are we not taking our time to produce something now for implementation later? I know that there is more time now to consider the bill than there would be in an emergency—I am not arguing about that, and that is not what the commissioner’s office is talking about. It says that we should prepare draft emergency legislation now so that it can be implemented when an emergency arises.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

I have one final question. Does the fact that you never used these powers throughout the pandemic, and they were never required to be used, not just prove the point that the colleges and universities are making, which is that the powers within the original emergency act were too prescriptive and it would never have been possible to use them for that very reason? If they were never used before in that format, why on earth are we replicating what we never used before because it was too prescriptive? Why not take the framework approach, which is far more sensible and, in fact, the way that you worked the last time?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

How do the proposed powers impact on the Charities and Trustee Investment (Scotland) Act 2005?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Willie Rennie

I have a final question. I commend the Government for the fairness and reasonableness of its approach through the pandemic. There is no doubt that there was consensus. You brought us in and we engaged.

There is absolutely no guarantee that that will continue. You are now asking this Parliament to give you permanent powers for an emergency on the basis that you are nice and reasonable people. However, this Parliament cannot guarantee that that will be the case for evermore, so you are asking Parliament to take a big step in giving you those powers for evermore on the basis that you are fair and reasonable people. You are that now, but that might not be the case in the future. That is why I think that there is a real danger that you are asking us to do more than we should be doing.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 2 March 2022

Willie Rennie

Megan Farr, you have given a pragmatic response and set out a potential way ahead that deals with the concerns that some of my colleagues, including Fergus Ewing, expressed earlier about the need to respond quickly in an emergency while making sure that we do not have permanent and disproportionate emergency powers.

There are two elements to this. There is the length of time that the powers are in place and there is the content of those powers. In an earlier session, we heard that leaders of various higher education institutions think that what is proposed is micromanaging far too much, that there should be broad principles and that they should be allowed to get on with implementing them. There is a debate about whether that is right, and then there is the debate about the length of time.

I would like you to comment on the content aspect, if that is okay. Are you saying that we should use the time now to debate the content and then have the legislation ready to roll if the event were to happen again? Are you saying that, perhaps rather than legislating now, we should debate now and get it ready?