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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 June 2025
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Displaying 2025 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

Good morning, and welcome to the ninth meeting in 2025 of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. We have received apologies from Jackie Dunbar, and we welcome back Clare Haughey, who is substituting for her.

Our first agenda item is consideration of a Scottish statutory instrument that is subject to the negative procedure—SSI 2025/44. Do members have any comments to make on the instrument?

Members indicated disagreement.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

Our next agenda item is consideration of an item of subordinate legislation that is subject to the affirmative procedure—the draft Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Act 2003 (Treatment of Qualifications Scotland as Specified Authority) Order 2025. The committee will take evidence on the draft order, which relates to the Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Act 2003, from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills and her officials. The minister will also move the motion that the instrument be approved.

I welcome Jenny Gilruth, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills; Clare Hicks, director of education reform; and Nico McKenzie-Juetten, who is a lawyer in the Scottish Government legal directorate. I understand that the cabinet secretary wants to speak to the draft order.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

Do you accept that what was agreed to at stage 1 will not be what the Parliament will ultimately pass, because you have accepted the deficiencies in the bill and the fact that it needs to be heavily amended? Therefore, I wonder whether we are a bit premature with your proposals today.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

I am just asking you, quite simply—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

My question was about the timing of the instrument that is in front of the committee today. Given that I think that you are accepting that the bill will have to be heavily amended—whether you believe that that is because the bill is not good enough or because, in a Parliament of minorities, you will have to accept that—and given that there will be changes to the bill before it is passed at stage 3, if it is successful, why is the order coming forward now? I know that there is precedent for taking things forward after stage 1, but has that been the case where there has been so much criticism of a bill at stage 1?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

We are being asked to start the process now to have things in place for day 1 if the Education (Scotland) Bill is passed. If the bill does not pass—given that legitimate concerns have been raised at stage 1 and we do not know what amendments will or will not be accepted at stage 2, or what the ultimate outcome will be at stage 3—I am querying what would happen if appointments have been made to a body that does not exist.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

You cannot provide that assurance. You simply cannot do that and neither can the cabinet secretary or the Government, because we have been tasked by the Parliament with scrutinising the bill and making amendments that will not be considered or voted on until April. I therefore find it very difficult to see why and how we can support the instrument today, given the acceptance that I think we have had from the cabinet secretary and from you as officials that things could change significantly at stages 2 and 3.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

In fairness, I did allude to that earlier. My point—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

They would usually come from a wide range of organisations and backgrounds. Cabinet secretary, do you want to come back in?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 12 March 2025

Douglas Ross

It is also a real inherent risk that the Government will be aware of. I have already asked a couple of times what the Government’s contingency plan is if the draft order is not passed today because of members’ concerns—not their views on the bill itself or on qualifications Scotland, but their concerns about not being able to influence the bill before stage 2.