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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 June 2025
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Displaying 1208 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Thank you for those helpful answers.

Ms Congreve, in your written submission, you raise concerns about the use of data. For example, you say that the financial memorandum states that some of the estimates of inflation are taken from the Office for National Statistics but that you understood them to be from the Bank of England. Have you had that issue clarified with the Scottish Government? Have you asked the Government why it did not use the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts and, if so, did you get any clarity on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Good morning. Just like the witnesses who attended the committee last week, you have each cited instances where you feel that there has not been sufficient detail to ensure that the numbers relate to the narrative. Have you been surprised by the extent of the lack of detail, given that the scale of the change and reform is significant? It is on the same scale as merging the police forces or college regionalisation.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Am I right in thinking that you raised the issue because you want much more clarity about not only the statistics but the rationale for using them? Is that what you are seeking?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Obviously, the health service is in difficult circumstances for many reasons. Would the bill have merit if those circumstances were easier—if we were not fighting Covid, other health issues, the cost of living and so on? Would it be the right thing to do?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Obviously, it will not be easy for the committee, and eventually the Parliament, to carry out the scrutiny that you have referred to if we are a little unsure about the source of the statistical analysis and the rationale for using it. In many ways, that makes our job just as difficult as yours is. I am interested to know whether you want that clarity in order to make a better assessment of the statistics.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Is it not also appropriate to have consistency as well, because that allows us to measure against a period of time, particularly given that, as we have mentioned today, it will be an on-going process for some time? Surely it is important to have consistency in the statistics against which you are measuring.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Liz Smith

Mr Roberts, you have been clear in your view that, although some of the principles behind the bill might be laudable, you do not think that it is the right thing to do at this juncture. Is that the view of your colleagues who are chief executives of other health boards? Is there a general feeling that, although you might like to do some of these things, that huge structural change is not appropriate just now?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Liz Smith

Do you accept that we have moved too quickly? Obviously, you have to take evidence from stakeholders who will be on the front line in delivering what will, in effect, be a new system. Would it have been better to take a slightly different approach to designing the bill so that we had a more substantial financial memorandum with greater detail than we have at present?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Liz Smith

That was helpful.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Liz Smith

I put on the record similar concerns to those that my three colleagues have spoken about so far. The financial memorandum is an important part of any bill or legislation, and it is important that, when we pass bills, they are good law. Good law has certain principles—namely, it has to have clarity of purpose, it has to be understood and it has to be workable, but it also has to have a strong evidence base. Although we are considering only the financial memorandum and not the wider policy commitments, the committee is struggling with the lack of an evidence base.

You have just given an answer to Michelle Thomson that makes it clear that work is being done on an on-going basis and that the information will be updated. Our problem is that we have to scrutinise the financial memorandum. Do you accept the criticism that has been levelled at you by the people who will give evidence later this morning and others who have provided written submissions? The convener described it as “excoriating” criticism. Do you accept that those people have a point and that there is not enough information for them to make a value judgment about how to proceed?