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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 August 2025
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Displaying 1222 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

I entirely accept the point about cost of living issues, inflation and so on—that is absolutely accurate. However, you seem to be suggesting that more information will have to come forward in order to make the second financial memorandum more accurate.

You said that you are having a meeting on 5 June. Can you explain to us your expectations of the additional information that you are looking for so that the committee can be more confident that the second financial memorandum is more reflective of the true costs than the first attempt?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

No committee could expect the figures in any financial memorandum to be absolutely spot-on first time round—that is a given, as Parliament’s experience tells us.

Nevertheless, we are on the back of having a look at the first financial memorandum for the proposed national care service, which—as you know—was found, by general consensus, to be very seriously lacking, to the extent that this committee sent it back because it was just not good enough. If we come to a point at which a second financial memorandum is required, that would mean, by implication, either that additional information is forthcoming or that there would be an updated set of statistics that builds on the first financial memorandum.

I am interested to know to what extent you think that the meeting that you are having with stakeholders will bring forward any additional information, because I suggest that that is the expectation.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

The bill stands to benefit a little bit—as I understand it, other committees have been looking at it, and there is general agreement that the principles of it are good. The concern is that if we are not going to get the second financial memorandum until after stage 1 is completed, that raises questions about the process between stage 1 and stage 2. As the Finance and Public Administration Committee, it is our job to make sure that the process is absolutely watertight and that, between those two stages, the relevant information is put before the Parliament.

As I said, that has been a concern for us with previous bills. Can you give us an undertaking that that will happen so that the new financial memorandum is much more accurate on what the figures will be?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

Good morning. A key issue that has been exercising committee members’ minds throughout our evidence sessions relates to how much clarity of purpose there is when it comes to decision making. If there is not that clarity, it is very difficult to get good-quality decision making. How easy do you find it to set in motion that clarity of purpose? Do you have a good understanding of what clarity of purpose is when it comes to decision making?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

Thank you. That was helpful.

Have the other two witnesses identified any difficulties in establishing clarity of purpose on what they are trying to achieve?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

That is very helpful. Several of us here had an excellent visit to the Welsh Senedd a couple of months ago and were very taken with quite a few things that we heard. Please pass that back.

I ask our final witness to finish the discussion on clarity of purpose.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

Minister, you talked in your opening remarks about the initial engagement with stakeholders and said that the evidence that they provided was the basis for the first attempt at a financial memorandum. You are now suggesting that the second financial memorandum will have to take cognisance of the fact that some of that evidence was perhaps not as complete as it might have been. What will have to be added to the second financial memorandum, given that the evidence that you took for the first one is turning out not to be accurate?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

Given the criticism of the bill that has been levelled by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and various other groups, do you expect that, at that meeting, they will come forward with a carefully worded argument to the Scottish Government about what they think would need to be adjusted in the second financial memorandum in order to give an accurate reflection of the costs? Is that your understanding?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

I understand the point about reflecting what is right for children, and I get the point about the UNCRC. What I and the committee are concerned about and have been concerned about with previous financial memoranda is the process of scrutiny of the figures that go into them. That is our big concern and it has been with various things over the past couple of years. I am just trying to make sure that Parliament is absolutely watertight on that scrutiny.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Liz Smith

Are you able to access the information that you require relatively quickly?