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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 August 2025
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Displaying 1222 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

This question is for the minister. On the issues that were flagged up during the time that you were reconsidering the bill, are you confident that you have solved the concerns of those who are advising you on co-design?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

I understand that, minister, but the end of stage 1 is approaching pretty fast and all parliamentarians鈥攏ot just those who are on the committees that are addressing concerns about the bill鈥攏eed a bit more detail, as the convener has suggested, about the likely costs over a 10-year period and about how those relate to the initial costings. We also need to know what the benefits are likely to be.

That is the issue for us. Never mind party politics: this is about scrutiny of what the convener has described as one of the Scottish Government鈥檚 flagship policies and of how workable that policy is. Do you agree?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

The national care board is an essential part of the administration and workability of the whole bill.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

Good morning. Minister, Donna Bell explained to us on Tuesday that the substantial changes that you made to the bill last year arose from the feedback that you had had from your co-design partners about issues with relationships, deliverability, likely disruption and costs. I want to ask about the relationships aspect. What were the co-design partners telling you about problems in respect of relationships?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

No, not at all.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

I understand why those economic benefits are so important, which is why I am asking the question. If the bill is to be successful, it is essential that those who are scrutinising it can see what those economic benefits are projected to be. You seem to be suggesting that, even at the initial stages of the bill, there was no calculation of what you think its economic benefit would be to society. It seems as though you are still working on those costs.

My point is twofold. First, appreciating what the benefits will be will help us to understand how those might allay some of our concerns about potential costs. Secondly, if co-design is on-going鈥攁s your officials and you have said that it is鈥攊t is quite difficult for us to understand what the potential costs of that will be in the future, never mind just now. You have said that there are a number of things that you are still working on, such as costs related to carers. Do you accept that it is very difficult for us to scrutinise the longer-term costs of the bill in relation to your projected economic benefits? The data for both those things does not seem to be particularly complete.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Liz Smith

That does not give me much confidence that we know what the national care board will be like. Accountability is essential. We absolutely need to know the make-up of the national care board and where accountability will lie. As I understand it, one of the big changes between the first and second iterations of your thinking about the bill is the change from having 32 different boards to having one national care board.

I will leave it there.

SF

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Liz Smith

I want to pursue co-design issues and the implications for costs, which are the central concern for the committee. I would like a bit of clarity, please. You said in an answer to the convener that there has been considerable co-design over the past nine months. That takes us back to April 2023. Can you make it clear whether co-design was on-going before then? When did the co-design start?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Liz Smith

Did the substantial changes that have been made to the bill in respect of no transfers of staff and assets to local authorities and no new care board plans result from your co-design discussions since spring last year?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Liz Smith

Why was that not possible, given that co-design was on-going before? If people were advising those changes, why did the Scottish Government not respond to that at an earlier point?