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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 2341 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

As I was saying, the checks and balances issue that you have all mentioned is probably the key to protecting against those outcomes. We will all agree that the principle of devolving as much power as we can is sound, but that the checks and balances—such as we have in Scotland, with the Accounts Commission and internal audit—seem, for some reason that we do not know, to have deserted our colleagues in places such as Woking in quite a stark manner. Is that a positive note on which to finish our conversation?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

Are you saying that Scottish councils should have the powers that Woking Borough Council had?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

I suppose that the checks and balances are probably the key to it—

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

I want to turn back briefly to the issue of financial sustainability to try to compare and contrast what happened in England with what could—if it were possible—happen in Scotland. We have already referred to some of the reckless behaviours down south that led to the situation there, but do you think that that recklessness came about as a result of the general power of competence being granted to England’s local authorities? I know that we do not have that power in Scotland—I am going to ask you in a minute whether you think that we should—but do you think that the situation came about as a result of councils investing in the private sector and so on and running up huge debts? We heard some spectacular examples last week of how badly it all went, but what caused it? Was it the devolution of the general power of competence?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

Do you have a view, Professor Heald?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

That was a really fascinating response. I would suggest that there have been similar examples in Scotland over the years. This is where the word “brokerage” comes into play; colleges got brokerage when they had some deficits, as did national health service boards over the years. Perhaps those are smaller examples of stepping in to resolve issues so that you do not fail to deliver services.

10:30  

Last week, we also heard about the abolishing of the Audit Commission and that story of failure, Professor Heald. However, we are also aware that internal audit did not disappear and vanish overnight. Councils such as Woking, which racked up a ÂŁ2 billion deficit, must have had internal audit scrutiny of what they were doing. Either that was roundly ignored or no one was on the ball.

If we in Scotland decide to do something like what you suggest—devolve power and fiscal responsibility to our local administrations—are we at risk of ending up in the same place as Woking? Could that happen? We can call it a power of general competence if you like, or we could call it something else such as devolving further powers to local government. How do we in Scotland protect ourselves against the outcomes that happened in places such as Woking?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Willie Coffey

I presume that there is evidence of that in Woking.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 25 September 2024

Willie Coffey

Adrian—do you want to add something?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 25 September 2024

Willie Coffey

Is it the same for Scottish Enterprise, Adrian?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 25 September 2024

Willie Coffey

My last question for you is about artificial intelligence and the ability to understand and engage with developments in that area. Neither of you has made a clear strategic mention of AI—for example, of its risks and opportunities—not only as that relates to what happens within your organisation but in relation to possible developments externally. Will you talk just a little about whether you are aware of the risks and opportunities that might be provided by AI, and about what you might plan to do in the years to come?