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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 August 2025
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Displaying 2049 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

I see nodding heads among the other witnesses. I apologise to David Hawkey, but I will leave it at that, convener.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

I will be incredibly brief. I do not think that, in a framework bill, we can legislate for a cultural change in how Governments liaise with one another, but my colleague Monica Lennon is absolutely right that partnership working will be absolutely crucial.

In relation to that, when the committee comes to scrutinise the five-year carbon budgets, would it be more helpful to have a longer line of sight and more certainty over Scotland鈥檚 capital budget? I am conscious that we set annual budgets in the Scottish Parliament, but I am talking about capital budgets over a 15-year period.

11:45  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

There is some helpful overlap in some of this. When Parliament comes to scrutinise the five-year carbon budgets, we want to make sure that they are ambitious but also that they are realistic鈥擨 think that Dr Nurse is quite clear about being realistic.

We have spoken a bit about the pounds and pence requirements, and Professor Ulph talked about the fiscal constraints and what the costs will be, but, more generally, what information does Parliament need to have at its disposal? I am talking about information not about the bill but about the five-year carbon budgets that the bill enables. What data or information does Parliament need in order to effectively scrutinise whether any carbon budget that comes to this place for consideration is ambitious and realistic? I ask Dr Nurse to respond first.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

That is helpful. It is about the art of the achievable鈥攁bout whether we have enough data and can ensure that sectors will have capacity to deliver the stuff that you mentioned about heat in buildings.

Professor Ulph, you mentioned the data that would be required to ensure that the policy is fiscally achievable. Will you say a little more about that? What data should the Parliament have ahead of considering not only the climate change plan but the five-year carbon budgets?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

Dr Nurse, on the level of scrutiny, any comments on the use of the affirmative procedure or otherwise would be helpful. This is my final question because, obviously, we are under time constraints, which is actually part of my question. The bill appears pretty narrowly drawn and maybe limited in scope, but it could be narrowly drawn and limited in scope but have a big impact. We all understand the issues about the time that we have now to scrutinise the provisions in the bill in what is an expedited process. Scrutiny may have to come further down the line鈥攈ence why I mentioned super-affirmative instruments.

Dr Nurse, what should the level of parliamentary scrutiny be? Can we do it within the very challenging timescale that has been set for us by the Scottish Government or will some scrutiny come further down the line when the five-year carbon budget has been set, in line with my mention of the super-affirmative procedure?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

Do any of the other witnesses want to comment before I hand back to the convener?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

Do any other witnesses want to鈥攂riefly, because of the time constraints鈥攔espond to that? From what Dr Nurse said, it appears as if the heavy lifting of scrutiny will not necessarily come from this framework bill but will come from the five-year budgets, the delivery plan and timescale and the finances that underpin all of that. Does anyone else have any brief comments about that?

11:00  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

Good afternoon, Philip. Thank you for supporting our evidence sessions. As a former committee convener, I feel your pain about getting Government ministers to attend committees. I struggled persistently to get UK ministers to attend Scottish committees.

I was interested to hear about a draft climate change delivery plan being published at the same time as the five-year carbon budget. Are there any health warnings in relation to that? How detailed could it be, given the year-to-year budgets that the Scottish Parliament gets? Would there be an understanding that a draft budget might have to change to a degree because of the uncertainties with the fiscal framework, which we heard about from Professor Ulph earlier?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

How much of what you are talking about is related to the five-year carbon budgets, and how much of it is related to the climate change plan that will follow? The high-level stuff might be in the five-year carbon budgets, but the plan needs to contain the day-to-day brass tacks of delivery. Should the committee have as much data on both those things before we consider the five-year carbon budgets?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Bob Doris

Is all that doable? I am conscious that projecting what capital expenditure will be required to tackle climate change in Scotland for the next 15 to 20 years is challenging in the first place, given how the Parliament鈥檚 finances work. In your earlier remarks, you mentioned the interaction between reserved and devolved spending. Will you say a little more about that?