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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 May 2025
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Displaying 1913 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

At the moment, young people of 16 or 17 years, depending on whether they are already part of the children’s system, do not have the same rights in police custody as younger children do. The bill extends additional rights to young people in relation to police custody. Can you say a little about what those rights are and how they will benefit young people?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

Thank you. I will not dwell on this aspect, as it is a pretty uncontentious part of the bill, but I note that the bill provides that young people will not be able to waive their right to legal representation, which is an additional protection.

At last week’s meeting, I nudged witnesses on the issue of whether young people should ever be detained in a police station. I am not saying that this is necessarily my view, but it has been suggested that a “place of safety” should never be a police station, unless that is—I am stumbling to say it—impractical. Do you think that there is a case for saying that it should be set out in the bill that no young person should ever be detained in a police station? If not, in what circumstances do you think that that would be unavoidable?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

I have a couple of brief questions, minister. The bill includes a number of provisions that seek to enhance the rights of children who have been detained in police custody with rights that they currently would not have. Could you expand on what those provisions are and how they will benefit young people in those situations?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

That is helpful, minister. I have no further questions.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

The more I hear, the more the convener’s question about how that will be monitored becomes pertinent. In evidence sessions, witnesses have said that we do not want to set young people up to fail by putting in place an MRC that they will find really tough to comply with.

You mentioned that, should there be breaches of MRCs, there would be a review of the order that is in place and a fresh children’s panel would be held. If MRCs were used instead of a secure accommodation disposal by the children’s panels, that review would have to be done in short order. What reassurances can you give us, either today or by following up in writing, about how quickly children’s panels can be set up to carry out that review and to decide whether the MRC needs to be reviewed or kept in place, or whether the young person needs to be moved on to secure?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

Thanks, minister.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Bob Doris

That would be helpful, convener. I welcome the minister to her position.

The exchange with Ms Maguire was helpful, because I think that the committee has a better understanding of the policy intent behind the changes to the terminology relating to movement restriction conditions. The committee would welcome that being tightened up. We will produce a stage 1 report in due course. We have repeatedly heard about the challenges with the changes to MRCs and we have not heard much about the potential opportunities. I would not want those to get lost in our stage 1 report. Can you talk about what those opportunities might be?

I am assuming that an MRC is less restrictive than secure care, which may be better for a young person. For a young person who is in secure care, it is a big jump to have a full restoration of liberty. An MRC could be deployed as part of their pathway back into the community. I have not heard much about that.

Do you expect more MRCs to be used after the bill is passed? The convener is absolutely right to ask how that would be monitored. Will you also say what the potential benefits might be?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 26 April 2023

Bob Doris

I want to have a wee look at enhancing the rights of children—16 and 17-year-olds—in police custody. As I understand it, the bill will ensure that, wherever possible, they are not detained in police custody in the first place and that their parents are notified, unless the child objects, in which case they can identify another individual in that respect. The two things that will always happen are that the local authority will be informed, given its wider duty of care, and the child will not be able to waive their right to a solicitor.

I hope that I have summed up the enhanced rights, but are they sufficient? What difference will they make? Should the range of rights that I have suggested be added to? Ben Farrugia, do you want to go first?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 26 April 2023

Bob Doris

So, the notification requirements and active engagement from the local authority, social work or whoever will be, as you have described it, a stretch. Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to bring in Councillor Buchanan.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 26 April 2023

Bob Doris

Do you want to flesh that out a little? Can you give a specific example, other than capacity issues, of where police custody would be absolutely unavoidable, which would mean that we would not want the provision to be included in the bill?