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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 August 2025
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Displaying 2049 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is really helpful.

I apologise if I sound like a pedant, but the idea of “losing” money is open to interpretation. If passengers were not using the buses, the bus companies would not get any money. Perhaps we should talk about the bus companies not maximising their income, rather than about them losing money. Is that an appropriate alternative way of using the terminology?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

I think I have been kicking around the Parliament for too long, because I remember Stewart Stevenson—in a previous incarnation of your current role, minister—outlining the situation.

I want to clarify something. First, thank goodness there is a cap, because we have to protect the public purse—that is a positive, not a negative, thing. However, my understanding is that, if we reach that cap and we get the data, no service will be impacted. What will happen is that we will get the data for the next round of negotiations on setting the budget for the next concessionary travel scheme. Reaching the cap will inform the data for the next discussions that we have with bus operators, rather than put at risk any bus service, anywhere. Is that the situation?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

Thank you.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

I was thinking about Ms Lennon saying that she was not yet born when the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 was enacted. Unfortunately, I was certainly born at that point, but I will gloss over that.

In my head, I hear the mantra of “no better off, no worse off”, which we have heard a lot about today. The budget for 2024-25 is putting £370 million into concessionary fares for private bus companies. There is also the network support grant, which we have just heard about. There is massive investment from the public purse into private bus companies. That is important to put on the record.

Of course, it is incumbent upon us to ask whether that is the most effective way of using that money. Minister, if we could find a guaranteed way—without undermining the eligibility of the existing concessionary schemes—of using that quantum of cash more effectively to better run the Scottish bus network, would the Government give consideration to that?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is helpful. I have a feeling that we will have a question about that shortly.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

Yes, it is important that you put that on the record, so thank you for doing that.

Dr Dixon and Mr Roberts will understand that these questions come from previous evidence that we have heard in relation to the matter.

Some witnesses have suggested that ESS has not quite got into the swing of using its full range of enforcement powers. Informal agreements can be better sometimes, but ESS has a range of enforcement powers and questions have been raised about whether there is sufficient expertise as yet within this young organisation, as both witnesses have put it, and whether ESS is fully resourced. This is your opportunity to respond to some of those comments.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

The point that the use of enforcement powers is not necessarily a sign of success was well made. There are other ways to get the outcomes that ESS is looking for. That was interesting to hear. However, you also talked about the very high bar that applies before some of those powers can be used. I put my hands up: I have no idea whether it is appropriate that the bar is set so high. Is it set at a reasonable level for ESS, or are you still taking into account that you are bedding in as an organisation before you can determine that?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Environmental Governance

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

That is very helpful. Thank you.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 5 March 2024

Bob Doris

In following that line of questioning, we might have lost sight of the purpose of having a cap. I appreciate that there is pretty sophisticated modelling, given that we have had a concessionary travel scheme for more than a decade.

I am happy for the minister to tell me that I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the cap—which was not exceeded in the previous financial year, so no bus company lost out—is there to protect the public purse. That is pretty important. Can you confirm that, if there was no cap, we could not protect the public purse?

We have modelling work on the concessionary scheme for older people and on what their usage looks like, but we are not yet in a position to administer a cap for the younger persons scheme because the data that we have is—relatively speaking—in its infancy. The heart of the issue is the purpose of the cap.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

MV Glen Sannox (Hull 801) and MV Glen Rosa (Hull 802)

Meeting date: 27 February 2024

Bob Doris

That is where I wanted to come in, convener. However, first of all, someone out there will be watching this exchange, and we keep talking about capex. Can we not speak in code, and can you be clear about what you mean by capex?