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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 11 August 2025
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Displaying 1019 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

鈥攁s you always are. I will certainly ensure that Mr Hepburn keeps the committee updated on the collection of data as we move forward.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Despite the way that it is often portrayed, a great deal of success is happening in Scottish education. When we look at the number of qualifications received at the last results day, we see near-record highs, and the number of young people going to positive destinations when they leave school is also at a near-record high. I think that it would be a grave misinterpretation to say that there is not success within the education system, because the number of young people who are going to positive destinations suggests that there is.

10:45  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Again, I would push back on the suggestion that the OECD said that Scottish education is in crisis, because that is not what its report said, and that is not what the International Council of Education Advisors said, either.

There is a lot to commend in Scottish education. One of the aspects that came from the international council when I discussed the matter with it was that we should look to reform but that we should also look at continuous improvement. That means looking at how we challenge ourselves to learn the lessons of what happened during Covid and at how we challenge ourselves to move to the next level. It does not mean getting to a point at which we are in a reform process that throws out what already happens in Scottish education. A lot of good happens in education.

I do not accept the premise of the question that the reform process was built in because we were in crisis, because I do not recognise that in the recommendations of the OECD or in the work from the international council. They did say that we can improve, but I do not think that there is any education system in Europe or elsewhere that should not challenge itself to improve. That is what the reform process is about. Scottish education is in good shape鈥攁s the information on exam results and positive destinations shows鈥攂ut are there ways that we can improve our system? Of course, there are. That is why the reform process was brought in.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

There are a number of areas in which Colleges Scotland has made proposals for the financial year that we are in and moving forward. Between the Government and the SFC, which allocates the expenditure, we are looking to ensure that there are increased flexibilities around the budget, such as not being as direct about how the budgets are spent to the same proportion. It is about how colleges can get a little bit of flexibility. That is not in relation to the entire budget but around a pretty substantial proportion of it.

I genuinely think that Colleges Scotland and the Government have been working well together to look at the flexibilities. We are very open to that. Mr Hepburn and I have had a number of conversations with Colleges Scotland, and officials frequently have similar conversations, as does the SFC. It is one of those areas in which we can assist colleges and give them the flexibility to deliver in a really tight financial situation. I do not think that there is any difference of opinion between the Government, the SFC and Colleges Scotland about the need for that, and we are all keen to move forward with that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Indeed, and that is exactly why the discussions that we have will vary from institution to institution. Although you understandably point to the difference from the rest of the UK, there is also great variation within Scotland.

You have mentioned the work on international students that is already happening with the university sector鈥攖hose discussions are happening at all levels of Government to ensure that everybody is aware of and is sharing information about risks and that institutions are cognisant of them. Because they are independent of Government, the Government cannot insist on changes鈥攏or should we鈥攂ut I think that everybody in Government and in the institutions is very live to the points that you have made.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Colleges have an exceptionally important role in our vision for our economy. One of the Government鈥檚 priorities is the move to net zero, and colleges will play an exceptionally important part in that. The on-going work on purpose and principles sets out where we want to develop a shared understanding and vision for Scotland鈥檚 tertiary education sector, including colleges.

In summary, my expectation of the college sector is one that can deliver for the needs of our economy and society. Those needs will change over time as our economy and society change, and our college sector will have to change and respond to those needs and demands. The sector has shown that it is exceptionally flexible, that it works well with local employers and that it looks forward to identify what future skills are needed to ensure that it can deliver on that.

For brevity, I will leave it there.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Given that it is a multiyear fund, we have a multiyear evaluation strategy. You are right to point out that the fund will have some short-term effects but that some effects will take time to come to fruition. We are looking at more frequent publications as part of the refreshed SAC and at what in-year evaluation we can do instead of retrospectively evaluating what has already happened. That would assist with how the money is being spent instead of our waiting until the money has been spent and then evaluating. That is quite difficult, because certain aspects are quite intensive, particularly for some of the projects, and it can take time to see the effects, as you will appreciate from your experience in schools.

The other important aspect is the headteacher survey, which asks whether headteachers feel that a difference is being made. We have seen very positive feedback from those who have replied to that survey in the past. The survey gives us as good a guide as possible鈥攆rom those who take part in it鈥攐n whether headteachers feel that the money is making a difference on attainment or wider health and wellbeing issues. That is another important part of the process of checking in regularly, although we are fully aware that turning things around will take some time, given that, as Audit Scotland and the International Council of Education Advisers recognise, the issue is exceptionally complex.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Forgive me, but I am not sure whether Mr Marra thinks that we should give them more money or less.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I will just point out that, actually, we have made progress. Although I appreciate that there was a small drop鈥攐f 92, I think鈥攍ast year, teacher numbers are at near-record levels, particularly in primary teaching. However, I appreciate that we have a long way to go.

To fulfil the target is a challenge. However, we have many challenging targets in Government, and we are certainly determined to deliver on that one, with the assistance of COSLA and local authorities as the recruiters and employers.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

We look at the NIF鈥擨 know that we have had discussions on this in the past because you have challenged me, quite rightly, on the fact that my focus is within primary schools rather than on different measurements, but there is a framework in the NIF around measurements of the poverty-related attainment gap. We need to see a full change happening across those measurements. There have been a number of measurements whereby we have seen an improvement; there have been a small number whereby we have not seen any improvement; and there have been a number whereby things have kind of stayed the same.