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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 11 August 2025
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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Child Poverty and Parental Employment Inquiry

Meeting date: 14 September 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Thank you, convener, and good morning. I am grateful to the committee for inviting me and my ministerial colleagues to give evidence today.

Tackling poverty and protecting people from harm is one of three critical and interdependent missions for the Government. As the First Minister stated last week, it is clear that economic growth goes hand-in-hand with tackling poverty. Our programme for government commits to increasing the pay of up to 100,000 social care and childcare staff, to rolling out universal free school meals for all pupils in primaries six and seven, starting with those children in receipt of the Scottish child payment, and to introducing a pilot for the removal of ScotRail peak-time fares.

Driving forward action at greater pace and scale to meet our ambitious targets remains at the heart of work across all portfolios. However, the harm that has been inflicted by the United Kingdom Government’s austerity-driven policies and the on-going cost of the union crisis is making our job considerably harder. If the UK Government reversed key welfare reforms that were introduced in 2015, it would help to lift 70,000 people, including 30,000 children, out of poverty this year and put £780 million back into the pockets of low-income households.

“Best Start, Bright Futures: Tackling Child Poverty Delivery Plan 2022-2026” outlines the wide-ranging actions that the Government and our partners will take to reduce child poverty in Scotland. Increasing incomes from work and earnings is an important aspect of our overall approach. That is why we remain committed to scaling the reach and effectiveness of our devolved employability services to enable low-income parents to enter, sustain and progress in employment, and have made £108 million available for the delivery of employability services this year.

We have also set clear priorities for the reform of post-school education in order to deliver a lifelong education, research and skills system that enables everyone to fulfil their potential. It is deeply frustrating that employment law remains a reserved matter in the hands of the Conservative Government—a view that is shared by trade unions across the United Kingdom, which this week backed calls for employment law to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

Despite that, we have set out a number of wide-ranging actions in our refreshed “Fair Work Action Plan: Becoming a leading Fair Work Nation by 2025”, which was published in December last year and is aimed at tackling labour market inequalities. We are committed to working with businesses to address Scotland’s labour market participation challenges, starting with a focus on health and the needs of parents, particularly those in the six priority groups, in order to help to reduce child poverty.

We know that high-quality affordable and accessible childcare plays a critical role in supporting employment and the economy. Scotland already has the most generous childcare offer anywhere in the UK, supporting families and helping to give children the best possible start in life. Our programme for government sets out ambitious commitments to delivering a significant expansion of targeted childcare provision that is focused on tackling child poverty and supporting more parents to take up or sustain employment.

We also understand that a sustainable exit from poverty will never be just about securing and retaining a job, and that is why we are taking much wider action to tackle poverty. That includes continued investment to deliver more affordable homes; our commitment to transforming how family support is delivered, with a focus on shifting towards early intervention and prevention, supported by the whole family wellbeing fund; and our continued investment in, for example, our game-changing Scottish child payment, which has put more than ÂŁ350 million into the pockets of low-income families since it was launched in February 2021.

The way in which actions are delivered is key to the plan’s success. The creation of the tackling child poverty programme board, supplemented by the formation of a new ministerial group on the implementation of “Best Start, Bright Futures”, will ensure robust governance and co-ordinated implementation.

We are delivering in the most challenging circumstances, with our block grant funding 4.8 per cent lower in real terms than it was in 2021-22 at the time that this budget was set. Over the past five financial years, we have mitigated ÂŁ711 million-worth of Tory cuts, including the bedroom tax, the freeze on local housing allowance and the benefit cap, through activities such as discretionary housing payments and the Scottish welfare fund.

Our action is making a difference: modelling estimates that 90,000 fewer children will live in relative and absolute poverty this year as a result of this Government’s policies, with poverty levels 9 percentage points lower than they would have been otherwise. That includes lifting an estimated 50,000 children out of relative poverty through the Scottish child payment.

However, we know that there is more to do, so we will continue to do everything within the scope of the powers and the limited budget that we have to tackle poverty and support those who are in greatest need, strengthening that support where we can.

I very much welcome the committee’s inquiry and the opportunity for my ministerial colleagues and I to answer your questions, and I look forward to your conclusions and recommendations in due course.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Child Poverty and Parental Employment Inquiry

Meeting date: 14 September 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I will start and Neil Gray can follow with more detail.

We have been looking carefully at the parental transition fund, and we are keen to move forward with it. However, as has been stated, a question that was answered recently showed that, despite our work with stakeholders and others to see what could be done in that area, given the devolved settlement and the implications of the interactions that the fund would have with the tax and benefits system, it became clear that it would not be possible to deliver the parental transition fund as we originally envisaged.

That is clearly disappointing, but I am satisfied that we have worked with stakeholders to test that to the limits. We need to find other ways that we can do it within the powers that we have. I am conscious, with all these policies, that we never want to do anything that jeopardises somebody’s current benefit entitlement, such as by providing money through such a fund. Given the challenges, we will look at what more can be done on the issue in other ways.

I will add that we welcome the changes that the Chancellor has announced on universal credit, although there are still real challenges with the awareness of the changes and how they are working in practice, so we are keeping a close eye on that issue. Both we as a Government and stakeholders have been asking for the changes for some time. Now that we are into the implementation stage, we need to see whether the changes are genuinely making the difference that we had hoped for. I am sure that Neil Gray will have more to say about that.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Child Poverty and Parental Employment Inquiry

Meeting date: 14 September 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

That is an interesting point. Given his vast experience on this and previous social security committees, Mr Balfour will know that we had to use our powers in a different way for the job start payment for exactly the reasons of some of the limitations that I have talked about. The concern is how long it takes, because it requires legislation in Westminster. Even if we were to find agreement and a way forward on that, it would take a considerable time for such legislation to go through. We saw that with some of the challenges around establishing the job start payment.

When faced with such barriers, it is imperative that the Government looks at what could be done more quickly, which is why we have moved to see what more can be done to support parents into employment through the employability work that Neil Gray has discussed. Creating a new benefit has not been ruled out for the future, but given the urgency of the issue, I certainly would not be content to wait, so we have not done work on that. It is more about what we can do now rather than at some theoretical point in the future, but it could still, of course, be looked at.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Child Poverty and Parental Employment Inquiry

Meeting date: 14 September 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I gave the example of the job start payment. Westminster legislation was required to give us the powers to set that up. Theoretically, we could set up another benefit, but that would still have implications for reserved benefits. Even if we decided to do something ourselves, those implications would remain. Even with the powers, if we went forward with that, the challenges of how a new benefit would interact with UK benefits would still exist.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Charities (Regulation and Administration) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

A charity can apply on behalf of an individual—even if an individual was not in a position to apply for a dispensation or did not wish to, the charity could apply on their behalf. It is not just down to the individual. I hope that that reassures the member.

The amendment relates to specific concerns that OSCR raised about the impact of the discretion to grant dispensations of its own accord, because that would be a legal obligation.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Charities (Regulation and Administration) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Good morning, convener.

Section 2 imposes a specific requirement to include the names of charity trustees on the Scottish charity register. As well as ensuring transparency and accountability in charities, the section aims to ensure that the publication of any information does not put anyone at risk. When the safety or security of any persons or premises could be jeopardised, an application for dispensation can be made to the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator to exclude the charity’s contact address or any trustee names from the register.

A discretionary element was added to the bill to allow OSCR to apply dispensations to a charity or class of charities without the need for an application—for example, in the case of a women’s refuge charity. However, OSCR has expressed some concerns regarding that element of discretion. In particular, it is concerned that it might create an additional burden on OSCR to look behind every charity entry on the register in order to ascertain whether dispensation should apply. That was not the intention of the provision.

Following discussion with OSCR, the Government is satisfied that the key policy intention can be achieved in other ways—for example, by OSCR taking the initiative to contact a particular charity or class of charities to discuss any security concerns with them and to invite applications for dispensation that could then be processed swiftly.

As such, amendment 1 adjusts the process to be followed before a dispensation is granted. It removes OSCR’s ability to grant a dispensation of its own accord while retaining the ability to grant dispensation and remove the relevant information following an application from a charity or trustee.

I hope that the committee appreciates the need to overcome this technicality.

I move amendment 1.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Charities (Regulation and Administration) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

On the point that has just been raised, my understanding is that there is no definition of a religious charity, which is one of the technical difficulties with the bill. For that reason and others, I cannot support the amendment in the name of Jeremy Balfour.

Fundamentally, charities regulation is in place to ensure and maintain public trust in the operation of charities. The register of persons holding a controlled interest in land, known as the RCI, is an essential part of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2016, and that legislation was passed unanimously. The purpose of the RCI is to improve transparency in relation to land and property assets, irrespective of what type of legal entity owns them, and to ensure that a direct link exists between the property and whoever exercises a controlled interest in that property. The bill seeks to increase transparency in relation to charities.

I appreciate that concerns have been raised about the RCI, particularly by the Church of Scotland, and my assumption is that Jeremy Balfour’s amendment relates to those concerns. However, I must stress that a bill on charity regulation is not the place to try to address those concerns. Indeed, the amendment would change the obligations of the RCI, which have, as I have said, been debated in Parliament not just in relation to the 2016 act but in the discussions on the Scottish statutory instrument on the RCI.

The information that will be available on the Scottish charity register under section 2 of the bill is a charity trustee name. The RCI relates to transparency in ownership and control of property and, as such, requires additional information to simply a list of names. Therefore, the information that is required is not the same and the two registers are not like for like.

The Scottish Government has had considerable recent engagement with religious organisations, particularly the Church of Scotland, in developing the RCI regulations. To address the concerns of some religious stakeholders, the transitional period before offence provisions take effect for non-compliance was recently extended by 12 months to 1 April 2024, with the unanimous support of Parliament. That provides those who need to register with the RCI with more time to prepare their submissions.

All parties supported the introduction of the RCI, which is a key part of our land reform strategy. Parliament has made much progress on delivering greater transparency in relation to individuals who have control over decision making in relation to land. The RCI regulations are a complex piece of legislation, and there is a risk that amendment 21 would lead to unintended consequences.

I therefore urge the committee not to support amendment 21.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Charities (Regulation and Administration) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I press amendment 13.

Amendment 13 agreed to.

Section 13 agreed to.

Section 14—Notice and obtaining information

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Charities (Regulation and Administration) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Amendment 22 appears to follow on from a recommendation that was made in the committee’s stage 1 report. In my response to that report, I agreed that

“effective and open communication ... is vital ... to ensure smooth implementation”.

OSCR also wrote to the committee to set out an initial outline for communicating changes to charities. In addition, it confirmed that it would share its plan with the committee ahead of engagement with the sector.

Amendment 22 focuses on charities with two or fewer employees, but that covers 73 per cent of charities. OSCR would, in any event, be expected to aim its support and guidance at the majority of charities. The amendment also requires OSCR to communicate with each charity, but at present it is not possible for OSCR to do that. That is why we have put section 11 in the bill and lodged amendment 20. There are more than 25,000 charities and, although OSCR has contact details for the majority of them, communicating with each one is not technically possible.

However, I am sympathetic to what Mr Balfour is trying to achieve. I would be happy to work with him on a stage 3 amendment that would enhance OSCR’s existing reporting requirements. I therefore urge him not to press amendment 22.

Amendment 23 would require ministers to carry out a review of the act that the bill becomes, starting six months after royal assent, and to lay a report before the Parliament

“no later than 31 December 2025”.

We do not expect the act to be brought into force within six months after royal assent, so there would be no experience of the act in practice at that point. Also, an adequate amount of time is needed for an act to embed so that evidence for a review can be gathered.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Charities (Regulation and Administration) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 June 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I would be open to that, but I am not sure that it would have the effect that Mr Balfour would want. I say that because, if we agreed to an amendment that included a timescale for a review that fitted better with the commencement plans, it would be necessary to divert resources from the wider review that we, as a Government, have already said we will undertake once the bill is enacted. We would be obliged to carry out a review even if nobody was calling for it or had any issues in practice. I do not believe that that is the right approach, particularly when any stakeholders who might want to raise specific points relating to the bill will be engaging with the wider review that we have committed to and will no doubt raise any points there that they want us to consider.

For those reasons, I am afraid that I have to say no to Mr Balfour—I would not be open to that. I do try to oblige Mr Balfour with amendments and assistance, but I will not in this case.

Convener, as I have set out to the committee previously, the Scottish Government intends to take a phased approach to implementation, with at least two sets of commencement regulations anticipated in spring 2024 and summer 2025. That is to allow charities and OSCR the time that they need to prepare for the changes and to give OSCR the opportunity to consult the sector, produce guidance and communicate the changes. The Parliament has the ability to conduct post-legislative scrutiny of any act, so it is not necessary for such actions to be specified in the bill, particularly if the specified timings for them do not align with the expected commencement of the bill.

As I have already mentioned, the Government is committed to conducting a much wider review of charity regulation following commencement of the bill. My officials are already preparing the groundwork for that, and I have carried out meetings on the issue as well. I am committed to working with the sector to shape that review and to ensure that there is a proper opportunity for engagement. During stage 1, members and stakeholders were very clear about the importance of doing that, and I very much agree. A review of the bill would, as I have said to Mr Balfour, hold up that wider review by diverting resources. I therefore urge the committee not to agree to amendment 23 if Mr Balfour moves it.