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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 August 2025
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Displaying 1019 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill: Reconsideration Stage

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

The issue is a consequence of the bill’s referral to the Supreme Court. For clarification, I should say to the committee that I intend to lodge an amendment to change the reporting dates so that listed authorities have clarity on the timing of their duties. It is, of course, for the Presiding Officer to determine whether such an amendment is admissible under standing orders for a reconsideration stage, which is not something that the Parliament has gone through before. It is certainly my intention to lodge that amendment, though, and it will then be for the Presiding Officer to take a view on it.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill: Reconsideration Stage

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I absolutely appreciate that children and young people in particular want us to just get on with it, as we were told at the Cabinet takeover, and I have kept that in my head as we have been considering the situation, trying to ensure the maximum coverage in such a way that the bill is a piece of living and breathing legislation that will make a difference to children and young people. There has been frustration within Government that we have not been able to move faster, and I know that that is very much felt by children and young people and their representatives, too. I still think that it was important to take the time to consider those matters, and the work between the Governments at lawyer-to-lawyer level took time, but I certainly felt that it was important to get the maximum coverage possible.

There has been frustration. To mitigate some of that, we have tried to ensure that we are involving children and young people, their representatives and others as we have looked at the options that have come through. Clearly, we cannot go into the legal advice that we receive within the Scottish Government or the lawyer-to-lawyer discussions that have happened between the two Governments, but we take the conclusions of those and we have been trying to discuss them with stakeholders as the situation has progressed, to keep them up to speed.

We have also continued to work on the implementation, because not everything had to wait for the bill to be passed for us to consider what more we could do in the education field to ensure that children have a much greater understanding of their rights.

I do not know whether members have had the opportunity, either as constituency members or with the committee, to visit their local schools and talk to children and young people about their understanding of their rights and how they can take that forward. Certainly, one of the most inspirational parts of my time as Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills and in my current post has been listening to children and young people express with passion—as well as a wee bit of frustration—what the bill can and should mean for them. I thank all children and young people for their patience as we have gone through the process, but also for their work in, I hope, our getting the bill as right as it can be under the settlement that we have.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill: Reconsideration Stage

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I will first deal with the example of the Government avoiding making amendments to UK acts. Clearly, there will be an impact on what the Government thinks about as it plans legislation in the future. When we are deciding whether a change of law should be expressed as a freestanding provision or as an amendment, we look at parliamentary resource implications and accessibility to law. In the future, the Government will consider the implications of such decisions on UNCRC scope—that will be built into how we look at things.

Of course, bills will go through Parliament that measures could be attached to. Ministers are open to doing that, but we need to be careful, so I will not give an overall commitment to that, because it is important that we look at issues on a case-by-case basis. For example, we need to consider what provisions would benefit from being in an act of the Scottish Parliament, what would happen to the scope and timetable for a bill if it was already progressing and what level of consultation would have to be undertaken if we were to put something into a bill as it goes through. Would that delay a bill? Would members feel that it was a reasonable way forward if the measure was not in the bill at stage 1 and evidence had not been taken on it, for example? People might have concerns if we do not consult properly.

We need to look at issues on a case-by-case basis. It is an interesting proposal, but we will need to consider the issues each time that we look at such provisions. My encouragement to stakeholders and others is that, if they feel that there is an opportunity, they should absolutely reach out to officials and the ministers responsible for those bills to see what can be done and to have that conversation. Clearly, it is not as simple as lifting something from a UK act and putting it somewhere else, because Government and Opposition members may want to change, update and modernise the law.

We therefore need to be mindful of that. We are certainly not closing down the idea, but we will need to look at the issues on a case-by-case basis.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill: Reconsideration Stage

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Dr Tickell raised a very important point. The human rights bill, which has been consulted on, is already some of the most complex legislation that the Parliament will have had to consider since being reconvened. Therefore, we absolutely have to learn lessons from the UNCRC bill about its scope and how we deal with it. We also have to learn lessons about the difficulty that comes with such complexity.

Stakeholders will wish to have many things in the human rights bill, and my ask all along, as we have gone through the consultation for the bill, has been that if stakeholders do not think that we have gone about things in the right way, they should be encouraged to come forward with alternative proposals. They should not just say that they would like something to be in the bill or that they would like something to be done differently; we genuinely want to know how we can work together within the devolved settlement.

The UNCRC bill has been an example of the limitations of the devolved settlement and of the willingness of the UK Government to seek Supreme Court judgments, et cetera. We need to be very cautious about that, because I do not want to get into the same position with the human rights bill, which I think is even more complex legislation than the UNCRC bill.

To say that the human rights bill is complicated is an understatement, and the conversations that we are having in relation to the UNCRC bill throw into sharp focus some of the discussions that we will inevitably come back to as part of the human rights bill—particularly when stakeholders ask us to go further when the Government or others might have concerns about scope and legislative competence.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill: Reconsideration Stage

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I would be very concerned if public authorities stopped taking a children’s rights approach when delivering their duties just because they are not in scope of the compatibility duty. As I said in my opening remarks, a real desire has been expressed by the Parliament and, more importantly, by children and young people for that approach to be taken regardless of whether the legal compatibility duty comes into effect.

Regardless of the scope of the legal duties in the bill, UNCRC is already at the heart of getting it right for every child, as the convener will be well aware, and it is important that we consider that in its entirety. We are keen to work with local authorities to take a children’s human rights approach in the delivery of their services, regardless of the source of their powers. I know that children and young people want us to do that as legislators, and it is important that our services are delivered in that way. We were speaking earlier about the funding that is in place, and we should not differentiate here: it should not be a matter of just taking that approach when the legal compatibility duty arises while somehow leaving aside the rights of children and young people, as if they are lesser rights, when they are impacted by a UK act, for example.

We are keen to work with public bodies to ensure that we are still considering that approach in the round, regardless of the legal compatibility duty, because it is the right thing to do. As I stressed in my opening remarks, although we are disappointed about the changes that we have had to make, there is still a lot in the bill that requires that wider look to be taken, rather than just considering whether something will end up in court.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 26 October 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Thank you very much, and good morning, convener.

As with all our social security benefits, dignity, fairness and respect have been embedded throughout the process of developing both child and adult disability payment. The journey between the benefits is already well established, and the regulations before the committee today will further improve the client experience of it.

We have extended the eligibility for child disability payment to age 18 to ensure continuity for young disabled people and their families. Given that, as we have been told, this can be a difficult transition period in a young person’s life, we have introduced what is a key point of difference from the Department for Work and Pensions system.

The regulations also build on the existing improvements by protecting payment dates for young people moving to adult disability payment. That provides financial continuity, reduces the risk of gaps in payment or overpayments and eases the transition from one form of assistance to another. It is worth noting that no such protection of payment dates is currently available in the DWP system.

We are also making sure that, where people will get more money when they move to adult disability payment, the process is fully aligned with the policy intent while delivering consistency and fairness across different client groups. We have safely and securely transferred the disability benefit awards of well over 97,000 people living in Scotland, and we are continuing to do so in line with our case transfer principles. No one has to reapply; people continue to be paid the right amount at the right time; and, since the launch of adult disability payment, no one has been required to start a process that would subject them to a DWP-style face-to-face assessment. We will complete the transfer as soon as we can while ensuring that the process remains safe and secure, and we are communicating clearly with people throughout so that they know what is happening with their benefit and when.

We are taking this opportunity to clarify and improve some of the case transfer provisions that support the process. For example, where a person’s award is transferred from the DWP, we recognise any existing appointee pending a review by Social Security Scotland. We are clarifying that a separate review does not need to take place if the person has already been appointed by Social Security Scotland for the purposes of a different Scottish benefit.

We are also clarifying that Social Security Scotland can stop the transfer process if someone moves out of Scotland to another part of the United Kingdom after their case has been selected for transfer but before the transfer completes. That means that they can stay on their existing award and they do not have to reapply to the DWP after they move.

Finally, people whose awards transferred to the child disability payment currently continue to be eligible until they are 19. That approach was meant to ensure that young people who turned 18 close to the time that the adult disability payment launched had enough time to apply. The proposed amendments limit that extension to those turning 18 before the end of the year, which is fairer and a better prioritisation of resources.

We have engaged with the Scottish Fiscal Commission, which has confirmed that it anticipates no material financial implications for Scottish Government spending as a result of the regulations. That confirmation is particularly welcome in this challenging fiscal period, given that the regulations offer further improvements for the people of Scotland at no increased cost.

I am committed to continually improving public services for the people of Scotland, and the regulations allow us to provide clarity and further improve people’s experiences. Taking such opportunities is a founding principle of social security in Scotland, and the regulations that are before the committee today evidence my unending commitment to continuous improvement.

I want to extend my thanks to the Scottish Commission on Social Security for its formal scrutiny of the draft amendments earlier this year and its recommendations, which have strengthened the detail of the regulations that are before us today.

I welcome this opportunity to assist the committee in its consideration of the regulations and I am happy to provide any additional information as required.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 26 October 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I urge some caution when making comparisons. I will give one example of why the situation is different. Members of the committee will be well aware that, when people apply for PIP under the DWP, the customer—as they are called down south—is obligated to find their supporting information and present it, which is one of the greatest stressors and the greatest area of concern around the system that the DWP has. In Social Security Scotland, there is no obligation for the client to do that; it is the agency that will take that obligation on board, which means that it will take time for the agency to get that supporting information from a professional—a general practitioner, a supporting nurse or someone outwith the health sector. However, if we are comparing, it is important to recognise the amount of work that the client has to put in before applying to PIP to get that supporting information, whereas that is not the case under Social Security Scotland. That process takes time—for example, letters have to go out to a GP, and then that information comes back in.

I am well aware that people are waiting too long for child and adult disability payments, which is why a number of measures have been put in place through the client journey to see what can be done to improve that, and I am satisfied that the improvements are making a difference. That difference will have to show up in the statistics as they are published, but a great deal of work is happening and I believe that David Wallace has spoken to the committee about some of the detail of it. I could go on with more examples about how the process has changed, from what is in an application form to our work with stakeholders about how the supporting information is gathered, to the ability for our client advisers to look at that in the system and work within Social Security Scotland to try to bring things to a resolution quickly.

One of the other important aspects is that the agency has given clients many opportunities to, for example, provide us with the details of whom to get supporting information from, which gives the client many opportunities to be able to feed that into the system. That process also takes time if, for whatever reason, the client is not responding to information and requests that are coming out from the agencies.

I would urge caution about making direct comparisons, but I absolutely recognise that work needs to be done. That work is being done and it will continue to be done.

09:15  

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 26 October 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

They are not double, because you cannot compare the two figures; they are not a like-for-like comparison.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 26 October 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Exactly, so I—

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 26 October 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

At every avenue, we have endeavoured to ensure that we are working with people with lived experience to provide a benefits system that is not simply fit for purpose but provides dignity, fairness and respect at every opportunity. That is an important aspect of what we are trying to do and, again, it is about seeing social security as a human right. It is important that we look not only at how we introduce our benefits but at how they work in practice. The regulations today are an example of how we can continue to improve.

I am pleased to see that the recent evidence through, for example, the client experience surveys that Social Security Scotland publishes, has shown a high level of satisfaction with the process of application and with the level of support that people get to fill in the application, which is why we are determined to continue to improve. We should take pride in the fact that people with experiences of the DWP have helped us to shape a system that is markedly different from the experiences that they have had previously.