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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 24 December 2025
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Displaying 321 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

We do not know Audit Scotland’s view on that, and I understand that it did not respond to the consultation. Such an approach would mean that additional duties would have to be given to Audit Scotland. I am not ruling anything out, but perhaps that fact shows that it is not the route to take. We do not have a fixed view on that. I am just explaining that additional duties would require to be given to Audit Scotland for that to happen.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

My instinct would be to say that it shows that we do not need a new commissioner, and that we should avoid creating one if at all possible. As I said, it would be very much a last resort, and we should explore non-legislative routes to address some of those issues.

09:30  

The Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland told the committee that she was concerned about “duplication” and the risk of

“overlaps with existing offices ... undermining effectiveness and efficiency.”

That quote speaks for itself. A new commissioner would lead to a lot more confusion.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

If the bill were to proceed, that should be looked at. However, I do not know the answer to that question, because I cannot see how it could be achieved. Given that there is so much potential for overlap, how could we completely avoid that happening? I do not know the answer to that.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

Our non-legislative route is to enhance the national performance framework and how that is scrutinised and accountability is built in. That is our preferred route.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

I am happy to write back to the committee. We are undertaking work with the advisory group just now to look at those issues, with a view to publishing proposals in early 2026 and having final proposals ready for the incoming Administration after the next elections. If I can shine any light on what the advisory group is looking at in terms of potential routes forward, I will write back to the committee on that.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

As I said, we currently have mandate letters that go to public bodies with the NPF and outcomes built into them, and there are existing duties on public bodies in current legislation. It is clear that there are mechanisms already in place, but we want to make them work better.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

I, and other ministers, want to wait for the outcome of the advisory group’s work, which is currently under way. As I referred to already, we have existing duties, and the national performance framework is reflected in the mandate letters that are sent out from ministers to public bodies annually; the Scottish public finance manual also refers to it. The key for us is how all that is followed up and how we make sure that it is as effective as possible. That work is currently being undertaken by the advisory group, so it is difficult to give a view on anything until the proposals are before us.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

I will take a step back first. When the NPF was introduced in 2007—I was in the Cabinet at that time—it was seen as groundbreaking and pioneering. As you have acknowledged, it involves a long-term approach; the whole debate is about how we bring about long-term change and draw up guidance for public bodies to create a better Scotland.

There are 11 national outcomes, and some go up and some go down. We pay attention to those over the long term, but, over the past few years, we have recognised that we need to look at the accountability and scrutiny issues in order to make the NPF more robust. At the time that the Government proposed its bill, that was seen as a potential way of addressing those issues, but, having listened to some people and thought about it, it is clear to me that the non-legislative route should be further explored first, and that work is currently under way.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

I disagree with none of that, but we cannot allow an assumption to sink in that everything is bad at the moment. Since 2007, Scotland has made a lot of progress in promoting sustainable development and wellbeing, which are reflected much more across legislation. Earlier, I said that 30 bits of Scottish legislation refer to sustainable development; I am sure that, pre-2007, the figure was not nearly as high.

Progress is being made, and I hope that things are better in a number of areas, but we recognise that there is a lot of room for improvement. We need to issue better guidance, look at ways that we can improve things and learn from how other Administrations, such as Wales, do things. Canada, the Netherlands and Finland have well-regarded frameworks that are not reliant on legislation, so we should also learn anything that we can from them.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]

Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 November 2025

Richard Lochhead

I have seen some organisations and commentators expressing that concern, and I share it. Again, those issues are already covered in the national performance framework. Therefore, if the bill were to pass there would be two different sources, one of which would include that reference and one that would not. Our approach goes back to the need to avoid duplication or confusion.