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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 25 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You disagree, Sarah. You said:

“We welcome that this new outcome reflects the need to prioritise social care in Scotland”.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Growth and distribution are not necessarily the same thing.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Allan Faulds, how do you think that the NPF should drive spending decisions?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Jamie Robertson, another issue that comes out quite forcefully in the submission is flexibility. For example, on page 19, there is a really interesting graph after paragraph 78 that shows that, since 2010-11, there has actually been a significant increase in education spend—21.2 per cent in real terms—while adult social care spending has gone up by 29.4 per cent, and spending on looked-after children by 17.5 per cent. However, that has been matched by huge reductions in other areas—35 per cent in street cleaning, 27 per cent in tourism, 20 per cent in culture and leisure and 26.6 per cent in planning. There are a couple of other figures in there, too.

The submission also says that

“Scotland has a significantly lower pupil/teacher ratio than the rest of UK”,

with 13.2 children per teacher

“compared to 18 in England ... but does not have better educational outcomes.”

I think that I know what you are going to say in answer to this question, but just for the record, how important is it for local authorities to have the flexibility to decide for themselves how many teachers they employ, for example, and whether money should be able to be deployed elsewhere, if required?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Right, but you have not told me what those resources should be. What should the Scottish Government do about the local government settlement? Obviously, you are looking for funding to be increased and, from reading your submission, I know that you think that it needs to be increased quite significantly in a number of areas. We will discuss prevention and taxes later, but I want a wee bit more detail on what you mean.

I will come to David Robertson shortly, because Scottish Borders Council talked about the same issue in its submission. It said:

“addressing shared priorities, and unlocking both the potential and the best outcomes for communities requires adequate funding from central government.”

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I should really call you all by your first names, because we have two Robertsons on the panel, which makes things a little confusing.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

David Robertson, you heard at the beginning that we had a trip to Estonia last week to look at what it is doing in relation to digitisation of public services. Incidentally, Estonia is doing that because, after independence from the Soviet Union, it had a budget of only €130 million for the whole country. It couldnae afford to set up offices in rural towns and had to do everything somehow differently, and it ended up doing it digitally. Is Scottish Borders Council looking at that sort of service delivery?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Another area that you have highlighted frequently throughout the submission is preventative spend and early intervention. You say that there needs to be

“a refocus on prevention and early intervention spend”

and that

“Now more than ever, there needs to be investment in ‘upstream’ services that help to prevent problems rather than focusing spend on responding to them.”

I think that we would agree with that. I have mentioned to other witnesses and panels that in the 2011 to 2016 parliamentary session John Swinney allocated £500 million to try to embed preventative spend, but the difficulty was that there was no corresponding disinvestment in programmes that were—shall we say?—providing less value for money. What is COSLA doing to try to ensure that we move down the road of disinvesting in areas that provide less value for money in order to focus on the areas that provide the most?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I thank all our guests for their contributions. We will conclude our national outcomes scrutiny with evidence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic next week.

Meeting closed at 12:13.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Flexibility is a really important issue. David Robertson, how is ring fencing impacting on the Borders?