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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I come to Adam Boey. Sarah Latto touched on consultation. You were not very enamoured with the consultation, were you?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Incidentally, on local government employment, Malcolm Burr mentioned the fact that the number of people that his authority employs has reduced from 1,900 to 1,600. However, the figures that I have show that, between the second quarter of 2018 and the second quarter of 2024, the local authority workforce in Scotland grew from 242,000 to 262,000, although I realise that about half of those jobs are probably in early learning and childcare. Across Scotland, the trend is upwards, not downwards, according to official Scottish Government figures.

Time is against us, so I will give our witnesses an opportunity to say one final thing to the committee about anything that they feel we have not covered and which they think we should incorporate in our report to the Scottish Government on our budget deliberations.

Katie, you went first, so you will have the last word. Which of the three gentlemen would like to go first? If you have nothing to add, you do not have to say anything, but if there is something that you feel we should include in our report, now is your opportunity to mention it. Malcolm, you seem to be keen to comment.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The next item is a round-table discussion on the Scottish Government’s proposed national outcomes, which form part of the national performance framework. I welcome to the meeting Allan Faulds, who is a senior policy officer with the Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland; Dr Shoba John, who is head of Obesity Action Scotland; Carmen Martinez, who is policy and engagement lead at the Scottish Women’s Budget Group; Adam Boey, who is the business planning and performance manager at Stirling Council; and Sarah Latto, who is a senior policy officer at Volunteer Scotland.

I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for this evidence session. As with the previous panel, if witnesses want to be brought into the discussion at any point, please indicate that to the clerks and I will call you.

I move straight to questions. The first is for Dr Shoba John and it regards the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015. You said in your submission that Obesity Action Scotland is

“concerned that there is no mention of making any amendments to the Act as it reads currently. The current wording of the Act states that public authorities are required to have regard to the National Outcomes. However, we feel this is weak and needs to be strengthened to ensure the legislation is effective”.

Will you expand on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Before I bring in Allan Faulds, I will let in Shoba John, who has been waiting for a while now.

11:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is coming through quite a lot in the submissions. I call John Mason.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I call Adam Boey, to be followed by Sarah Latto.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I see that you have suggested in your consultation response that there should be

“Hierarchical ownership and accountability for each national outcome”

and

“A single theory of change delivery model for each national outcome”.

Can you talk about that a wee bit before I let in Sarah Latto?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

One area that I think is important, which Carmen Martinez highlighted, is how outcomes should drive spending and decision making. Will you expand on that a wee bit? I will then see what others have to say on that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is very helpful. It would be fair to say that, over the next two years, you are looking for a £780 million uplift. That is great.

David Robertson, you also talked about the need for adequate funding, but you said that

“the level of taxation which is collected, set, and spent locally is lower in Scotland than in international comparator nations.”

You make the argument, which Katie Hagmann has just made, that there should be more levers, but I am not really sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that a higher proportion of local government spend should be raised directly by local government? I think that you are saying that. However, you also seem to say that the amount of revenue that is collected should also increase substantially. Therefore, you are basically saying that, as well as having more powers, you should be able to impose greater taxes on the public, which I am sure would not necessarily be very popular with people. For example, we hear a lot about council tax revaluation, and there is some sympathy with that in the committee, but not if it is seen as a way of just grabbing more money from local people rather than as a rebalancing process. Where do you stand on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Are you saying that local people in the Scottish Borders should pay more in taxes, or are you saying that the money should go to the council instead of to Holyrood or Westminster?