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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The next item on our agenda is the Scottish Government鈥檚 proposed national outcomes, which will form part of the national performance framework. I welcome to the meeting Kate Forbes, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic, who is joining us remotely from Shetland. The cabinet secretary is accompanied by Scottish Government officials Keith McDonald, who is unit head in the strategy division, and Katie Allison, who is analytical unit head in the central analysis division. I welcome you all to the meeting and invite the Deputy First Minister to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I thank the Deputy First Minister for attending from Shetland, and I also thank the officials. Shetland is not as beautiful as Arran, which is in my constituency, but it certainly seems a lot easier to get to. That concludes our scrutiny of the national outcomes. We will report on our views and recommendations to the Scottish Government in November.

I ask committee members who are able to do so to stay behind for an informal discussion with University of Dundee students and staff about our work and to answer any questions about the session that they observed today with the cabinet secretary.

Meeting closed at 12:36.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Ground control to Major Tom.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. I have questions on capital, public sector reform and digitalisation, which I will not be able to ask unless colleagues do, because of time, so I sympathise with you.

Jamie Halcro Johnston is next, to be followed by John Mason.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Aw, what a wonderful world that will be鈥攎otherhood and apple pie all round.

I have one or two more questions, just to finish off. We need a focus on clear and measurable milestones to identify tangible improvements but, in our 2022 report on the national performance framework, we noted that, five years after the previous review, a number of NPF indicators had no data. What guarantees do we have this time that all indicators will provide data so that we can measure progress from the start?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

When the Scottish Fiscal Commission gave evidence to us last month, it suggested 21 separate areas for improvement in data collection to allow it to do its work more effectively鈥攁nd that was just for the commission. The committee and its predecessors have been talking about data for a good decade or so. I realise that, as a devolved Administration, you do not have the same access as the UK Government has, but it is still an area where we need significant improvements.

Before I wind up, are there are any further points that you want to make following our questioning that we have not touched on, or is there a burning issue that you want to get over in relation to the national performance framework and how we go forward?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The 拢160 million is not being spent: it has been lost to the budget.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The Basque Country, which has 35 more years of tax devolution than we have, says that 2 or 3 per cent does not make much difference but that, once you get above that, the tipping point becomes quite dramatic.

I open the session to colleagues around the table. The first to ask questions will be our deputy convener, Michael Marra, to be followed by Michelle Thomson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. Just before we wind up, are there any final points that you want to make to the committee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that, Deputy First Minister. I appreciate your opening statement.

To go back to the beginning of the Scottish Government鈥檚 consultation process, you will be aware that a number of our witnesses raised the concern that the consultation was not ambitious enough and that awareness of the NPF has diminished because of the lack of ambition in the consultation. Some of the witnesses took the view that, if the consultation process is weak, the NPF is not being given the priority within the Government that it should be given. In fact, that seems to have been the case across a lot of the evidence that we took.

Way back in 2007, the NPF seemed to be almost revolutionary and quite dynamic in Scotland, but it seems to have lost a bit of its importance, as far as perceptions of it go. As John Mason pointed out to the finance secretary, it was not mentioned in the programme for government. One wonders just how much the framework underpins Government activity.