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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 August 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. I noticed that there were more “finallys” in there than in a set of questions from Craig Hoy.

It seems only yesterday when you arrived—I cannot believe how fast the time has gone. What do you feel have been your main achievements as permanent secretary in that relatively short period of time, and in which areas do you feel that you could, and should, perhaps, have done better?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

The ministerial team has not changed that much, to be perfectly honest—John Swinney’s team is much the same as Humza Yousaf’s team.

Milestones are really important. In relation to public sector reform, you have talked about a figure of £300 million over two years. It would be great if we had milestones within that two-year period, so that there is not a sudden big bang in two years’ time. Two years from when, exactly? Is it two years from 1 January or from 1 April?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Excellent. That is what we are trying to see more and more of. That is a real issue. Trying to scrutinise the work that has been undertaken over the years has sometimes been like wrestling a jellyfish because of the absence of measurable priorities.

Lastly, the committee has sought clarification of how inward secondments are used to draw on additional resource and provide staff with broader experience. The committee went to Estonia, and that visit opened our eyes in a number of areas, including to the fact that the public sector there interacts quite strongly with the private sector—more than it seems to here, where the public sector seems to be more insular.

I realise that there is an issue of supporting academic secondments that are organised by the UK Research and Innovation policy fellows scheme, but is more being done in the civil service to involve the private sector in other areas of the work that you do, and the other way around, to see how you can learn from each other?

11:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I want to wish you well for your future endeavours. I have certainly enjoyed the interactions that we have had. Improvements have been made over recent years, so you can hang your hat on that.

We will have a short break while we change witnesses.

11:31 Meeting suspended.  

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

“OECD Review of the Scottish Fiscal Commission 2025”

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Our next agenda item is an evidence session with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development on its second review of the Scottish Fiscal Commission, which was published last week. I welcome to the meeting Scherie Nicol, who is the lead on Parliaments and independent fiscal institutions in the public management and budgeting division in the directorate for public governance at the OECD.

I understand that you would like to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

“OECD Review of the Scottish Fiscal Commission 2025”

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for your time. It has been very helpful and we greatly appreciate the work that has gone into the very positive report.

Meeting closed at 12:19.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Why are those in two documents? Why is it not one document? Why is fiscal sustainability not in the medium-term financial strategy?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I thought so, but it is good if those things are pinned down and explained. That is a simple, straightforward explanation, but it is good to have milestones saying where we expect to be after one quarter, six months or nine months. That way, for transparency, we have a clearer picture of whether the Government is on track and how much it is saving.

Colleagues are keen to come in, but I want to ask you one more question, on financial memorandums. It is important to acknowledge that progress has been made on financial memorandums, but the committee has had a number of concerns about the financial memorandums that have been presented to us. They have been considerably out of date, frankly, and that has had significant implications for costings and, ultimately, our scrutiny.

A number of members’ bills have come to us, and I am wondering about the change in guidance. You have said that

“the Scottish Government should proactively write to the Committee as soon as it becomes aware of any significantly revised figures (including margins of uncertainty) for FMs during Stage 1 of a Bill’s passage.”

Will that apply to members’ bills as well as to Government bills?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

“OECD Review of the Scottish Fiscal Commission 2025”

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that. I will bring in colleagues around the table, starting with John Mason.