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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 27 December 2025
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Displaying 4060 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

We will start with a question to Dave Moxham, and anyone who wants to comment on what he says can let me know. After that, we will move around the table and cover a number of areas. There are some areas that people have made strong comments on in their submissions. I am sure that those issues will come up naturally but, if they do not, I will go to someone and say, “In your submission you said such and such” and we will take it from there.

In more or less the first paragraph of its submission, the STUC says:

“Scotland needs more workers. While migration is a reserved matter, the Scottish Government should be engaging with the UK Government, pushing for the devolution of powers relating to migration and employment law and for Scottish Government involvement in important cross-border institutions and decision-making bodies to ensure Scotland’s specific population challenges are heard at a UK level.”

To be fair, I think that the Scottish Government has tried to do a lot in that regard. I am not sure that UK Governments, past and present, have been too keen on migration. Can you talk about that issue, which is a very important issue at the current time?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Do you not want to talk about the issues of migration and taxation, which Dave Moxham just mentioned?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That would be helpful—unless you want to mention any of them now.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

In relation to multiyear funding, for years, the Scottish Government has said that it does not receive multiyear funding from the UK Government. Do you think that the spending review will be an opportunity to bring in multiyear funding for the third sector? In your submission, you mentioned the increased employer national insurance contribution costs. The Scottish Government received £339 million to deal with that, but the cost of the impact on the public sector is about £700 million-odd. Given that the Scottish Government has not received sufficient additional funding to compensate for that, how can it pass that on without having to take money from its own projects and programmes?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I will bring in Mike Brown and then Michael Kellet; there are too many Michaels and Mikes here.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I will bring in Craig Hoy and Mike Brown in a minute or two. First, I have a question for Michael Kellett, which goes back to the subject of preventative spend.

In the first three years of the 2011-16 parliamentary session, John Swinney had £500 million available to embed the preventative spend approach. At that time there was resistance, particularly from the NHS, about disinvesting in some projects or areas that were not as effective as others in order to then invest in preventative spend. Some momentum was lost subsequent to that period.

Is it Public Health Scotland’s view that investing in prevention now will reduce demand later, and so disinvestment might not be as necessary as one might think? Craig Hoy gave the example of Mounjaro to illustrate that investing successfully might reduce the number of people who will need operations five years from now, or reduce the incidence of heart attacks and strokes. That would inevitably bring savings, so disinvestment is perhaps not as essential as we thought previously. What is your view on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I know—you are just a youngster.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I think that we would all accept that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Kenneth Gibson

You make a point, because one of the issues about income tax is behavioural change. The Scottish Fiscal Commission will say that, because of behavioural change, the Scottish Government will not raise 80 to 90 per cent of the amount that it hopes to raise with the top level of tax. That is not necessarily people moving elsewhere; they can just decide to work fewer hours. However, a property tax is on something that is there—it cannot be avoided.

How could that be delivered without cross-party agreement? That is the issue. There is no consensus about how that could effectively be delivered. One of the reasons for that is that people are concerned, particularly six months before an election, about the response of voters. Professor David Bell said last week that if you give people an extra £500 they just shrug their shoulders, but if you take £500 away from them they are ready to lynch you. People who gain are not particularly impressed, but the people who lose out are extremely upset.