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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I call Douglas Lumsden.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Okay鈥攖hank you. Do you wish to make any final points before we wind up?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning and welcome to the 28th meeting in 2022 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee.

Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business in private. Does the committee agree to take in private item 3, under which the committee will consider evidence that it has received on the financial memorandum to the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill?

Members indicated agreement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Item 2 is an evidence-taking session with the Minister for Mental Wellbeing and Social Care on the financial memorandum to the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. Mr Stewart is joined by the following Scottish Government officials: Donna Bell, director, social care and national care service development; and Fiona Bennett, interim deputy director for national health service, integration and social care finance. I welcome you all to the meeting and invite Mr Stewart to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Where would the third sector fit in with those shared services? We took evidence from the Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland last week, and it said that it fears that additional costs would be incurred in order to meet information standards and data sharing requirements and to update software and undertake training. While noting that those costs might be modest relative to the overall scale of costs, the alliance stressed that it would be significant for individual providers and could affect the viability of third sector organisations, so there is concern that that could be an unintended consequence.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed. I now open up the meeting to questions from colleagues around the table.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that opening statement. As is traditional, I will start with some open questions before we move to questions from colleagues.

You began by saying that the bill鈥檚 stated purpose is to improve the quality and consistency of social services in Scotland, and it has been the view of everyone throughout the evidence sessions that that is what we want to see. However, why is this particular structure the best way of delivering that? If certain issues are affecting consistency and quality of care in some local authorities, why is that is not being addressed?

The committee has tried to tease out that issue in its questions, but we have not had all the answers that we would have liked. As I asked when Ms Bennett and Ms Bell previously gave evidence, why not name and shame the local authorities that are not stepping up to the mark to deliver the services that they should be delivering instead of creating this new all-encompassing structure?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Obviously, though, if the VAT situation is not resolved, we will have the same situation as with the police and fire services, whereby millions of pounds have been contributed to the Treasury in VAT when it could be much better spent on local services.

One issue that came out in the evidence from your officials was that not all staff may transfer. We are talking about a national service, but some staff may stay with the local authorities and some may move. Is that correct?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

One of the difficulties is that, according to COSLA, SOLACE, the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountability and so on, the consultation came out without any prior discussion and, as a result, they were caught on the hop. Moreover, it came out over the summer when they were trying to prioritise recovery from Covid, and they also felt that the consultation period was only the standard one when, with something of such magnitude, they should have been given a lot more time to develop and discuss issues with the Scottish Government and to present more detailed responses.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Only 3 per cent inflation is built into the financial memorandum but, as we know, the rate of inflation is already 10 per cent, and you indicated to the committee this morning that the Scottish Government intends to fully fund the bill and those changes. Will it be fully funded at the prevailing rate of inflation, and what do you think the impact will be on other local government services?

There seems to be a contradiction with the resource spending review that we had in May, because there is going to be a flat financial cash settlement but, with inflation at 10 per cent, that means significant reductions in service delivery and staff numbers, yet we are going to have this service that is apparently going to deliver more effectively for more people. There may be some savings, but initially there will be significant costs in setting up this apparatus. Is the Scottish Government committed to inflation proofing the bill?