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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 16 December 2025
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Displaying 4005 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed.

Okay, I have taken up more than enough time. I have more questions, but it is time to let other members in. Liz Smith will be first, followed by Daniel Johnson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thanks for confirming that we will get an updated financial memorandum—that is very good news.

I have a second question about that. You talked about £100 million extra going into national care service pay, which will be very welcome. For every £1 increase in hourly pay for care staff, what is the impact on the Scottish budget? For example, if the pay was to go up from £10.90 to £11.90, what would be the additional impact on the Scottish budget? That is significant, and I imagine that the issue is likely to come up over the next few weeks.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

No. It is just about the impact on the Scottish budget of every additional £1 in hourly pay.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We will move on from that. You have raised really interesting points. I will certainly take them up with other people.

There is a 6.7 per cent increase in the general staffing budget. You have explained some of that, but the SPCB’s submission says:

“Staff pay including use of contractors is budgeted at £37.3m, a net increase of £2.3m … in cash terms”.

What is the breakdown between contractors and our own staff?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

What developments do you expect from that to enhance public engagement? If you are employing three staff to enhance public engagement, what improvements in it do you envisage?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It is okay—that is a sound explanation. I should have thought of the national insurance issue, because you mention it in the document in relation to the overall budget. Thank you for explaining that.

I am going to ask about the annual survey of hours and earnings—the ASHE index. Given that the GDP deflator is 3.2 per cent, and consumer prices index inflation is 10 or 11 per cent, how do you arrive at that ASHE figure? I take it that it is about a year out of date. Is that right?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

What is the point in that? No one would say to any other group of workers—including in the Scottish Parliament—that they were just going to use the inflation rate as it was in late 2021 for calculating pay. How has that figure been calculated and why has that approach been adopted? Who was consulted on that? It seems an anomaly.

The letter says, with regard to staff provision, that

“Based on the recent ASHE publication this derived an index of 4.1%”.

However, recognising current inflation figures, the SPCB has opted to use only the average weekly earnings index of 5.6 per cent in order to uplift the general staff provision for members. Why is that not being used for ˿ but it is being used for everyone else? You said that there was no virtue signalling, but it is clear that there is.

I add another point. If the ASHE index says that because inflation is 11 per cent—although by the same time next year inflation might be 3 or 4 per cent, or possibly even lower—˿ should get a 5 or 6 per cent pay rise, we will just end up with lots of headlines about it being an inflation-busting pay rise, which, by that time, no one else in the public sector will be getting. That seems daft to me from a public relations or practical point of view—or indeed any point of view.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We continue our evidence taking on the Scottish budget 2023-24. I welcome to the meeting John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery. He is joined by the Scottish Government officials Alison Cumming, director of budget and public spending; Gary Gillespie, chief economist; and Andrew Scott, director of tax and revenues.

We have around 90 minutes for this session. Before I open the discussion, I wish Mr Swinney and his colleagues a happy new year, and I invite him to make an opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Colleagues might want to examine the net impact of that, but I will focus on what that tax will be used for. There are Barnett consequentials for health. In addition to those, how much additional resource is going into the national health service, for example?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Through fiscal drag, raising taxes impacts adversely on living standards, and it is anticipated that living standards across the UK will fall by 7.1 per cent over the next two years.

On St Andrew’s day, I was privileged to attend the official opening of the £88 million medicines manufacturing innovation centre in Inchinnan, which is a world-leading facility that has in part been made possible through Scottish Government investment. Given such examples, is it not time to focus more of the Scottish Government’s limited financial resources on boosting tech scalers—I know that there is an element of that in the budget, which I asked about after your budget statement, as you know—start-ups, research and development, innovation, skills and infrastructure in order to create high-value jobs, drive up private sector confidence in investment, attract people of working age—not just retirees—from across the UK and beyond to Scotland, and deliver the tax revenue that is needed to pay for the public services that we require?