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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 24 December 2025
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Displaying 4060 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. I will now open out the session to Daniel Johnson, first of all, to be followed by Ross Greer.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I prefer a dodecahedron to a circular cycle. What you are really saying is that the system is three dimensional, but it is portrayed as being two dimensional.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That said, you have also made a number of criticisms of the UK Government, which we will not go into here. I note, though, the issue of diseconomies of scale with regard to decision making and your comment that, because of their relative size, Wales and Scotland perhaps have a greater opportunity than the UK to work in partnership with stakeholders.

I have one final question before I open things up. In the last sentence of your report, just before the references, you talk about

“how the Scottish Government could change in relation to what is feasible rather”

than

“restate the value of simplified models that do not exist.”

What would you change in that respect?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank Professor Cairney for his evidence this morning and his excellent report.

Meeting closed at 10:58.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thanks for that very positive ending to your opening remarks. [Laughter.]

Your report brings into sharp focus the monumental nature of the inquiry that we have decided to embark on, because we could move in so many different directions. There is a clear difference between political rhetoric and reality. I mean that in the most positive sense. For a number of reasons—one relates to resources—politicians from all political parties are not always able to deliver on the ground what they seek to achieve.

We are focusing on how decisions can be made more effectively. When we speak to a number of civil servants from different departments next week, it will be interesting to find out whether there is a coherent decision-making structure in the Scottish Government, or whether some parts of the structure make decisions significantly differently from others. What is your experience of that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

John Mason and I were members of the Finance Committee between 2011 and 2016, and we did a lot of work on prevention. There were a number of frustrations at that time. First, we can all identify good approaches to preventative spending, but it is extremely difficult to get the resources to disengage from delivery models that are not working particularly effectively. Secondly, everything that we do is, of course, within the hothouse of the chamber and the media. Everything is measured by the number of nurses, the number of police officers and so on rather than necessarily by outcomes at the end, although there are attempts across the board to have more focus on those outcomes.

We understand that there is no perfect delivery system. In your introduction, you say that Governments can aspire to do wonderful things but that there are innate contradictions. For example, involving a number of partners in the decision-making process can conflict with strong central decision making and a decisive ethos so that people outside can see where their Government is heading and what it plans to do.

10:00  

I suppose that it is about trying to look at the least imperfect system. In the report, you look at New Zealand in some detail including, for example, how New Zealand might own some of its failures of policy—although I think that the Opposition will do its best to point that out without any Scottish Government involvement being necessary. You also point to some of the successes in Wales and what is being done there.

Although they are in the report, would you talk to a couple of those examples for the record? Also, can you go beyond New Zealand and Wales to talk about where else we could look at. There are international models of delivery. Are there other areas that you think the Scottish Government—and, indeed, this committee—could look at?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

“I have given up” is not a good start.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes—I, too, am restraining myself from coming in on the back of that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It looks like a Cy Twombly drawing—if it was, it would be worth around $70 million.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I wonder how that would work here, in reality. It depends on who is doing the scoring.