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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 28 December 2025
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Displaying 4060 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 20 June 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I will now open up the questions to colleagues.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 20 June 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed. I call Douglas Lumsden, to be followed by Liz Smith.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 20 June 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It would be more effective and efficient if it was done collaboratively.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 20 June 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank you both for this excellent evidence, which was very interesting. It was a really good discussion. Do you want to make any further points before we wind up the session? Is there anything that you feel that we have not covered?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 20 June 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We just ran out of time, to be honest.

11:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 20 June 2023

Kenneth Gibson

As Sarah Watters has no further comments to make, I thank you both once again for your evidence.

We will continue to take evidence on the Scottish Government’s public service reform programme at our next meeting.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. The next item on our agenda, which will be discussed in private, is consideration of our work programme. We will have a five-minute comfort break to allow official report staff and our guests to leave.

11:02 Meeting continued in private until 11:28.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that. I should have said “Deputy Prime Minister” instead of “Prime Minister”.

Dr Foster, do you want to add anything on that question?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

There should also be ownership of policy right through from conception to delivery and post-legislative scrutiny. Of course, that relies on the ministers being in post, as we touched on earlier.

One of the things that I have been very curious about in terms of the evidence that we have taken from former ministers, former senior civil servants, current civil servants and academics is that there has been absolutely no mention whatsoever from anyone of special advisers, whose role is ill-defined; they appear to have no specific job description.

Special advisers have been around for 45 to 50 years, and of course they are endemic both in Whitehall and here in the Scottish Parliament. Boris Johnson had 126 of them, on an average salary of £102,000. At Holyrood, there were 17 of them last autumn—on an average salary of £92,000, incidentally—and now there are 12, I understand. What is their relationship like with civil servants and how do they fit into ministerial decision making?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I will wind up with a couple of questions. We touched on consultation when Ross Greer asked his questions, but I think that the issue is not about consultation; I think that people want to feel that they are involved at the start, and that it is really about participation.

For example, the first major consultation that I was involved in was 25 years ago when I was a councillor in Glasgow. The local authority announced that it was gonnae close nine of the 38 secondary schools in the city. It named the nine and there was then gonnae be a consultation on whether each one should close. Remarkably, six months later, the nine that they had announced were the nine that they actually voted to close. There was a huge feeling that it had been a cynical manoeuvre and a box-ticking exercise. Twenty-five years later, that is still a real concern.

Surely, we should not be talking too much about consultation but rather about people participating in policy development at an early stage. People should be consulted on what Government is going to do but also allowed to participate in the development of that policy, rather than having put to them, “This is the policy. What do you think about it?” Most of the time, Governments are gonnae come back and say, “Well, we’re still gonnae plough ahead with perhaps only minor changes.”

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Other members might probe that. Sandy, do you want to say anything before I move on to colleagues?