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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 12 September 2025
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Displaying 3649 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Hannah Tweed was nodding while Mark Taylor spoke. Your submission quotes paragraph 56 of the financial memorandum, which says:

“It is not anticipated that the establishment of the NCS and care boards, and the transfer of functions to those bodies, will have any financial implications for any other public bodies, businesses or third sector organisations, or for individuals.”

You disagree with that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

We are not looking for specific pounds, shillings and pence costs at this stage, but we are looking to see whether the parameters are correct and whether the best estimates have been delivered in the financial memorandum.

Cost underpinnings are important, because we are looking at structural changes and there seem to be colossal sums involved. We are not talking about building new headquarters for each of the boards or anything like that, but we are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds, and it is important to know how the figures have been arrived at, how accurate they are and so on. Do we have the best estimates?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much.

I will now open up the session to members. The deputy convener, Daniel Johnson, will be first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

On the list that Douglas Lumsden touched on, the Audit Scotland written submission states:

“There are a number of costs associated with the measures set out in the Bill that have yet be assessed. The Scottish Government has recognised this providing a broad description of the anticipated cost and the difficulty in assessing it at this stage.”

It then lists the areas where information has not been provided, including on the cost of care boards, transition costs for local authorities and health boards, VAT, pension scheme arrangements, the extent of potential changes to capital investment maintenance and the cost of the health and social care information scheme. Should any of those have been included in the financial memorandum at this stage, or was the Scottish Government right on what was included?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I thank the witnesses for their excellent contributions. The committee will continue our evidence taking on the financial memorandum next week, when we will hear from Kevin Stewart, the Minister for Mental Wellbeing and Social Care.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. The next item on our agenda, which will be discussed in private, is consideration of a proposed contingent liability.

10:51 Meeting continued in private until 12:03.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That might be the case in numerical terms, but people are saying that, for a bill of such magnitude, the consultation period was simply not long enough for them to provide the detailed responses that they would have liked to have given. Why was the length of the consultation constrained in the way that it was? For something so momentous—which includes, for example, the transfer of 75,000 staff—one would have thought that getting it right would be the most important thing and that the consultation could and should have been extended to allow for more detailed deliberations. As I mentioned, it took place over the summer, when there was a lot of disruption—people were still coming out of the pandemic, and they did not have the same ability to communicate with colleagues. Why was more time not given as a result to enable people to tease out a lot of the issues that have been raised?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

In the consultation, you all responded to the question of whether there was adequate time for consultation with a one-word answer, which was “No”. You might have missed some of the previous evidence session today because you were travelling here, but I put that point to the bill team, who obviously tried to defend the length of the consultation period.

How much time do you feel that there could have been for the consultation? How could it have been improved? What further consultation could there be? I will ask all three of you the same questions. What confidence do you have in the level of engagement on co-design, which the bill team mentioned on at least four separate occasions in the previous session? They talked about being proactive and engaging with stakeholders and so on, but that does not appear to be your collective view. Perhaps you can talk us through that. Sarah Watters may want to go first on this occasion.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

So you are saying that because so many people were consulted your own contributions have been hugely diluted as regards what the bill team took on board as the financial memorandum was being put together.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Funnily enough, that was going to be my next question, so I may as well ask it now. What should and should not be in the FM? Is there anything in it that should not be there and what additional content should there be?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

If that is the case and the true cost base is accepted, where will the resources come from to fund it?